Imagine No Redemption

[Rumil]

Good to see you again Hookbill,

I do have an example, but not exactly one of the greatest or most puissant characters of Middle Earth!!

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

Now as we all know she starts off mean and spiteful and money-grabbing, determined to wrest Bag-End from the Bagginses and add to her silver spoon collection. After Sharkey's ruffians took over the Shire she 'went for' one of them with her umbrella on being insulted and off to the lockholes they dragged her.

On her release she was cheered by the crowd, became popular, but was crushed by the loss of her son, she returned Bag End to Frodo and retired to Harbottle. Dying the next year, she left all her money to help hobbits made homeless by the troubles.

I'd say that was a pretty good turn-around

[Inziladun]

Might we also consider Thorin Oakenshield?

Again, not really evil; more, like Boromir or Gollum, a character defect that can lead to evil.

In Thorin's case, his avarice for wealth was not merely personal, but a hallmark of his race.
Still, upon his deathbed (again!) he found it in his heart to say to Bilbo that such pursuits as money and jewels should be renounced in favor of more simple, hobbit-like pleasures.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Hooky

Is this a redemption? If so, the cost is high for a seemingly short loss of temper.

If achieving redemption would be easy, it would be much too cheap to do evil deeds and just "redeem" yourself afterwards. I think the whole point is that redemption comes at a price. In the case of Boromir and Thorin Oakenshield the price is not only their pride but their life.

I would add another example of a failed redemption: Denethor. He realizes how little he treasured his younger son and cries (iirc). But in the end either he is too far gone off the rocker, or too despaired to follow up on that feeling.

Edit: xed with Hook

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would add another example of a failed redemption: Denethor. He realizes how little he treasured his younger son and cries (iirc). But in the end either he is too far gone off the rocker, or too despaired to follow up on that feeling.

Edit: xed with Hook

Aye, as Hookbill I think uncovered...Denethor had the right of it, Pride and Despair!

When Faramir is brought back sick and dying, it is said Denethor stays with him, and is indeed crying over his younger son's failing health. But his reaction to it is, complete and ultimate despair (and think of the torment he endured in his history...wife died soon after giving birth to Faramir. It is said Denethor became "more grim" with her death. His favored son then dies, and the son he realized he truly did love, is dying. Oh and the whole, realm he was charged to defend is on the verge of being destroyed). It's a sad story...as Gandalf says of Gollum.

[Boromir88]

Oh! Oh! Extra thought, since now I got to thinking on Denethor.

Theoden, is in many ways a redeemed character too. Although, I don't think I would say he even had a character trait (as Inzil mentions with Boromir and Thorin) that could potentially lead to evil.

Theoden's fall was driven by the hand of Saruman and a slimy counselor (I guess you could say poor judge of character? But really that not exactly "evil.") Anyway, Theoden is facing the threat of Saruman, is being held in a decrepit state of mind, his only son and heir dies. Yet he does come out "renewed" and triumphant after listening to Gandalf.

He too dies, although it doesn't appear to be in payment for an act of evil, unless if it's a very very delayed payment. Because again, Theoden didn't do anything wrong other than being a poor judge of who he had as his counselor.

[Galadriel55]

But even Theoden, with, as you said, no particular evil trait, needed someone (Gandalf the mentor) to guide him into the light again. Just like Gollum. And Denethor would have been like that too, had he listened to anyone in his last few hours.

Lobelia, Thorin, and Boromir see the consequences of their deeds when a disaster happens. A disaster they still have a slim hope to fix. Gollum, I would think, never really thought about his position that way. And Denethor refused to see any hope.

Perhaps if Sauron really saw what he and Morgoth did as a disaster, or if he had a mentor who convinced him of such, he would have repented for good. But seeing as that what we consider a disaster Sauron considers a great success...

[Nogrod]

I must admit I have never thought of this, but reading your posts this one thing really strikes me: all who are redempted in one way or another achieve their redemption by death.

The case of Lobelia is a telling one. Why did she have to die as soon she had changed her ways? Why was it not possible for her to change her views and then live happily as a redeemed person in her community?

I think it has to do with Tolkien's particular view of catholicism (and thus a very negative view on human psyche?), even if I can't quite grasp it in any more detail at the moment.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Pride and despair! As Denethor said. These seem the great downfalls of people in Middle Earth. Overcoming them appears nigh on impossible for a lot of the examples we've shown here.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

"My pride has fallen," and it sounds like Isildur intended to give up the Ring. Whether he would have done so had he ever gone to Imladris, well, won't be known. However, he was urgently in need of Elrond, and his pride had now fallen. Sort of puts an interesting spin on the whole "ambush" scenario...a sentient Ring knowing going to the "Keepers of the Three" would not be an ideal situation? So, let me draw evil in to kill this guy and get lost in a large river for a while?

This certainly seems plausible. It would tie in quite well with Aragorn's own reluctance to attempt to take the Ring, if he'd known that Isildur had fallen to pride and he did not wish to come to the same fate.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

To another example: would you consider Maglor's case as a "repentance"?
No, he and the sons of Fëanor were not "bad" in the manner of Morgoth or Sauron, but they did evil in obedience to a freely taken oath that they knew (or should have known) would lead to much chaos and bloodshed.

Yet, Maglor repented in his heart at least, and was willing to break the oath to avoid further slaughter, having sorrow for what had been done by himself and his brothers. It was apparently only the desire to go along with Maedhros, his last remaining brother, that caused him to fail

Notably, though Meadhros was moved to commit suicide, it was said that Maglor did not die, but wandered around aimlessly thereafter. Perhaps he saw that as penance he must perform?

The sons of Fëanor again seem to display this trope of pride, and a little despair.

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

"If none can release us then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking."
Maglor speaking of the Oath of Fëanor

But the oath seems to have sealed them in. They must shatter their own pride in order to break the oath, and so achieve less evil. Maedhros falls to despair, much like Denethor, and burns in the mountain. Maglor settles for, as you say, Inzil, wandering aimlessly. In both cases, if this is redemption, then it is hard bought.

Originally Posted by Rumil

I do have an example, but not exactly one of the greatest or most puissant characters of Middle Earth!!

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

Now as we all know she starts off mean and spiteful and money-grabbing, determined to wrest Bag-End from the Bagginses and add to her silver spoon collection. After Sharkey's ruffians took over the Shire she 'went for' one of them with her umbrella on being insulted and off to the lockholes they dragged her.

On her release she was cheered by the crowd, became popular, but was crushed by the loss of her son, she returned Bag End to Frodo and retired to Harbottle. Dying the next year, she left all her money to help hobbits made homeless by the troubles.

I'd say that was a pretty good turn-around

Interesting point! Perhaps she is not a villain, but she is an antagonist. She, too, seems to have some degree of pride. There is this sense of wanting to be recognised in the community, also a desire to have what she believes is hers, rather like Gollum's birthday present, or Isildur's 'payment' for the loss of his father and brother. She is 'redeemed' again through hardship; she sees her lands ruined, she is thrown in prison, and eventually, the crowd cheers her. She finally has the social recognition, but perhaps not the kind she had looked for. However, she seems humbled by it, and retires from the grudge match with the Bagginses.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Might we also consider Thorin Oakenshield?

Again, not really evil; more, like Boromir or Gollum, a character defect that can lead to evil.

In Thorin's case, his avarice for wealth was not merely personal, but a hallmark of his race.
Still, upon his deathbed (again!) he found it in his heart to say to Bilbo that such pursuits as money and jewels should be renounced in favor of more simple, hobbit-like pleasures.

I think this is probably the closest we'll get! Like all the others he is brought to 'evil' by his pride, his lust for what he sees as rightfully his. But as you say, he too buys his redemption with death. Not only his own death, but of many others, including some of his company.