Rings of Power talk!

[Aragrax]

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.


Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.


Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

[Mumriken]

I have always found the rings to be quite dull and uninteresting in the Tolkien mythology. However I do wonder if invisibility was given to every race that wore Sauron's ring. Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were all hobbits and besides Isildur were the only ones who put on the ring. The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book. If it isn't one can assume the ring amplifies the power that is already within the person/creature that is wearing it. It's a bit of Sauron's spirit put into the wielder.

If this is true one could speculate as to what would happen if different characters in the story put on the ring. Like what would happen if an elf or a dwarf put it on. What would happen if one of the maias put it on!? Saruon put some of his power into the ring, so to put it on he would only become whole. While Gandalf for example putting it on would amplify his maia spirit with that of sauron's. How many maiar makes a vala?

That Tom Bombadil made the ring dissapear and when Frodo put it on still could see him suggests to me he is a vala. If not Aule, the ruler of all matter then some unknown vala of unknown strength. Anyway I find this Tom Bombadil creature to be very interesting, Tolkien said he put Bombadil into the story as a important comment. Why so important? I know it's off topic but all topics seem to lead to the ultimate and most interesting mystery within the lord of the rings.

[Legolas]

Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.
____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:

And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion)

They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

At length therefore he [Sauron] resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved by their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his master. (The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales)

I do not think they could have attacked [Frodo with the One Ring at Weathertop] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. (#246, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien)

So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. (Gandalf to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. (Galadriel to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)

[Pervinca Took]

The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book.

It is. The ring treacherously slips from his finger when he jumps into the Anduin, and that is why he is killed - because the orcs see him and shoot him.

[jallanite]

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):

And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:

But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):

And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

Reply:

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:

But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

Reply:

Makes you wonder what uses the Dwarfs even found in the Greater Rings given to them? Or why they were even selected to be given Rings of Power due to it's limited effect on them?

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PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Very interesting but why then did the One Ring have power over them?

Because Sauron, the foremost expert in the power of the Great Rings, made it to have power over the other Great Rings.

PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.

[Nerwen]

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by Radtech

Reply:
Quote:
I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?

At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.

Quite so, the Seven and the Nine were given out by Sauron himself after he seized them during the War of the Elves and Sauron, not by the Elves. There is that tradition in Khazad-dûm that the Ring of Durin's line was given to them directly by the Elves rather than by Sauron but it's not completely verifiable:

It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-Smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he aided in the forging of all the Seven. ~Durin's Folk

I wonder - did Sauron intend for the Nine to turn their bearers into Wraiths? It was certainly useful that they did, but was it part of his plan? The Seven hadn't quite worked as planned on the Dwarves (they only made them greedy and wrathful, not susceptible to external control), but maybe that was the exception due to their unusual natures, which Sauron did not fully understand. I suppose the most efficient way to use the Nine would be to have them always controlling the same nine Men who never died, and thus making them into Wraiths would seemingly be the only way to do that, and had certain perks like making them terrifying and sorcerous. I always got the impression that the Seven and the Nine were identical, which is to say sixteen Great Rings with identical powers, and that their division was based solely on race; the Seven only had strange effects because Dwarves were using them.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted... etc ~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

This would mean that Sauron had to an extent wasted seven of them on the Dwarves and might explain why he spent a certain amount of effort in the Third Age trying to recover them. Did he want to re-use them and never got around to it, or were they simply too much of a potential danger as weapons in the hands of his enemies so long as he lacked the One? It is said of the Dwarves using the Seven that:

wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

But perhaps "evil enough" was not quite the kind of top quality evil (as it were) that Sauron really wanted. It seems to me that his master plan with the Rings, to have effectively conquered all of Middle-earth in one stroke, was on the one hand a brilliant gambit which would have payed off extravagantly if properly executed and yet, evidently, contained a great deal of risk which proved to be his downfall.

[Radtech51]

[QUOTE=Legolas;673149]Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.

Reply:

You might be right although I still get the impression that this was a task appointed to him by the white council, at the very least agreed upon by them.

____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Reply:

Why did Sauron seek the hidden three then? Or why keep them Secret? Especially if one knows the hidden three could never be used for evil purposes?

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!

Reply:

If Gandolf did indeed think the fight would have been in vain then I suspect he thought he would have lost the fight. Otherwise why risk being taken captive and Saruman finding the ring? I'm convinced that you are correct, Gandolf had thought they if he resisted Saruman he would have been killed no doubt it, and then for sure the ring would have fallen into his hands. To become Saruman's captive was the only choice at hand in his mind.
If Saruman was to try and take the ring from Gandolf I suspect Gandolf would not and could not have resisted without being killed, ring of no ring Gandolf allowed himself to be taken captive because he had no other choice. So I remain puzzled why Saruman did not take Galdolf's ring other then the fact he still thought he could have persuaded Gandolf in joining him and by taking Gandolf's ring would have destroyed any chance of that in his mind.
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:


They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

Reply:

I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?

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[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Aragrax

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.

Reply:

Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.

Reply:

Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

Reply:

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

Reply:

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

Reply:

I did not know that about Prof. Tolkien although it does not surprise me.

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