Hobbit2 - Chapter 08 - Flies and Spiders

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter leaves me wondering how Jackson's tough Dwarves are going to come across in the Hobbit movie - in the book they blunder about Mirkwood, forgetting their instructions, and appear both rather stupid and not very brave.

The chapter title made me pause and think upon rereading it - I know about the spiders, but didn't recall any mention of flies! Then I realized that it's the Dwarves who are the flies, getting caught in the spiders' webs. Again, not a very glorious role for them to play!

There are a number of questions to ask about this chapter: for one, are these giant spiders descendents of Ungoliath, related to Shelob? They seem less deeply malicious, acting more like a normal spider catching its prey - but they do have the ability to speak...

Another question - what causes the black mutations of animals such as squirrels and butterflies in Mirkwood ?

The enchanted stream is an element that appears in folk fairy tales - how does it fit into Middle-earth?

I look forward to your thoughts on this chapter!


Previous discussion.

[jallanite]

This chapter reads like three chapters, introducing three separate perils.

First, there are the general perils associated with Mirkwood. Tolkien portrays the difficulties of traversing an immense primeval forest, the gimmick being that the dwarves and hobbit are not allowed to stray from the magic road. Accordingly, hunting and foraging for vegetable food is not allowed. Tension is increased because no peril is clearly seen, only the eyes of animals and what seem to be enormous insects.

Black squirrels alone are seen, which is not untypical of a forest where squirrels will be the most visible animals. No hint of danger is associated with the black squirrels, other than the implication that their black coloration is a result of the sinister magic of the forest. This linking of black coloration with sinister magic somewhat fails for readers who live in areas where black squirrels are common, notably in my native Toronto.

Black squirrels dwell in mass throughout the city and very seldom cause any problems. They are friendly and cheeky and easily persuaded to eat from one’s hand, but if left alone mostly ignore and avoid people.

The second peril is the giant, intelligent spiders. I have encountered giant spiders as females in some mythological tales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_...ambiguation%29) and there are the West African tales of the spider trickster Anansi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi) but giant spiders don’t otherwise appear in traditional tales so far as I recall. Giant spiders are a commonplace in sensationalistic modern fantasy and sf tales which seem to here be the origin of Tolkien’s villainous spiders. Tolkien’s account of the death of the spider slain by Bilbo is unnervingly horrific:

Bilbo came at it before it could disappear and stuck it with his sword right in the eyes. Then it went mad and leaped and danced and flung out its legs in horrible jerks, until he killed it with another stroke.

The third peril is that of the Wood Elves, though here there is no necessary conflict. Thorin, and later the other dwarves, simply refuse to answer the Elves’ questions, though in fact the dwarves don’t have anything to hide. Even not considering past history, the elves might reasonably want to know why dwarves have suddenly appeared in their lands and the dwarves’ refusal to account for themselves hints at some sort of plot against the elves.

An interesting point is that Bilbo’s sword is visible, once he draws it, seemingly seen by the spiders as a sword apparently moving through the air by itself. But Bilbo’s clothes remain invisible. One might suppose that the Ring generates a field of invisibility extending some distance outside the body of the Ring-wearer. Anything held by the Ring-wearer that extends beyond that distance is visible. If Bilbo had been wearing a large cloak, it might have been seen to flicker in and out of visibility as the wind blew it.

Presumably the earth beneath Bilbo’s feet is to be considered a single, large object which extends far beyond the field and is therefore visible. The idea that there is an area of invisibility beneath Bilbo’s feet is not even thought of.

While Tolkien undoubtedly simply imagined that the spiders actually spoke in the common language when he originally wrote these passages, in light of the passage in The Lord of the Rings in which the Ring translates Orc thoughts and speech for Sam, one might suspect that this is what is happening here with the spiders, although Bilbo does not realize it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Black squirrels alone are seen, which is not untypical of a forest where squirrels will be the most visible animals. No hint of danger is associated with the black squirrels, other than the implication that their black coloration is a result of the sinister magic of the forest. This linking of black coloration with sinister magic somewhat fails for readers who live in areas where black squirrels are common, notably in my native Toronto.

Black squirrels dwell in mass throughout the city and very seldom cause any problems. They are friendly and cheeky and easily persuaded to eat from one’s hand, but if left alone mostly ignore and avoid people.

As a small bit of personal experience, the black squirrels of Mirkwood have always been an interesting snippet to me. I attended college in an area that had black squirrels brought into the environment. And years later, most brown squirrels were gone, it is now dominated by black squirrels. Which led to area legends about the black squirrels being aggressive, violent cannibals. All complete fantasy of course, but the black squirrel became the college's unofficial mascot and the legends on them are, well, legendary.

Slightly more relevant comments later.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Two notes about Black Squirrels:

I believe Darwin (or someone else) cited squirrels turning black in 19th Century Britain as an indication of evolution, the darker color being for blending in in a sooty industrial landscape. Perhaps Tolkien knew of this and put it in (as a slap at industrialization?).

Also found this about 20th Century black squirrels evolving from introduced greys:

Dr Alison Thomas, a professor of life sciences from Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge, who has been studying the ecology and genetics of England’s squirrel populations, said of the black squirrel:

'There has been a recent population boom. They are due to overtake the grey squirrel population in some parts of the country.
‘The first sighting was in 1912, but sightings were very rare until the last few years. They were first spotted around Letchworth Garden City, near Royston, Hertfordshire—currently home to the UK’s largest colony.
‘But since then they have migrated northwards, penetrating Cambridge city boundaries in the 1990s. Now they make up 50 per cent of the squirrel population in the villages around Cambridge and they are spilling into Bedfordshire and Huntingdonshire.’
The black squirrels are apparently more vigorous than their grey cousins, and out-compete them for food and mates. Some sexual selection in favour of the black squirrels has also been suggested, as the females appear to prefer the black squirrels as mating partners

[Galadriel55]

Memorable words from my mothe a few weeks after comming to Toronto: "squirrels are supposed to be red!" Toronto is infested with black squirrels (that love to cross the road right in front of your car).

By putting in black squirrels and butterflies Tolkien most likely wanted to create a darker atmosphere. The scientific explanation for the colour could be the lack of sunlight under the Mirkwood trees and the theory of evolution.

I do believe that the spiders are descendants of Ungoliant, like Shelob, but less potent. They still posess the intelligence, but they lack that power, or perhaps that strong of an evil, that Frodo and Sam felt when they went through Cirith Ungol.

In this chapter Bilbo not only stops getting himself into trouble, but he gets out of it - and rescues the Dwarves as well! He thinks quickly on his feet and braves the perils of diverting the spiders away from the clumsy company. And Bilbo develops as a poet as well.

I'm wondering about the passage when Thranduil questions Thorin about his company and Thorin replies that they are starving. On one hand, Thorin seems like the staunch hero, making the mood graver, but on the other the repeated phrasing about starving becomes funny. When you read it, do you think its more light-hearted or somber?

xed with Tuor

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

I believe Darwin (or someone else) cited squirrels turning black in 19th Century Britain as an indication of evolution, the darker color being for blending in in a sooty industrial landscape. Perhaps Tolkien knew of this and put it in (as a slap at industrialization?).

I’ve read this idea before, but it seems to me unlikely that Tolkien would suppose that the the dark fauna of an enormous, virgin woodland would come from industrialization in a place where there was none.

I agree with Galadriel55:

The scientific explanation for the colour could be the lack of sunlight under the Mirkwood trees and the theory of evolution.

The black squirrels I am familiar with are a variant of the North American Eastern Grey Squirrels. Grey-colored squirrels are also seen in Toronto, but are much less common than the black-colored variety. The Eastern Grey Squirrel was introduced into Britain from North America in the 1870s and a black variant is now putting the survival of the common British red squirrel in jeopardy. See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ntroduced.html .

For information on the black variety, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_squirrel :

The black subgroup seems to have been dominant throughout North America prior to the arrival of Europeans in the 16th century, since their dark colour helped them hide in virgin forests which tended to be very dense and shaded. As time passed, hunting and deforestation led to biological advantages for grey coloured individuals. Today, the black subgroup is particularly abundant in the northern part of the Eastern Grey Squirrel's range. This is likely due to the significantly increased cold tolerance of black squirrels which lose less heat than greys. Black squirrels also enjoy concealment advantages in denser northern forests.

In North America the red squirrel is a separate species living mainly on the cone seeds of conifers and is predominant in areas where conifers are dominant. They are not so omnivorous as the British red squirrel.

Black squirrels as a mutation of the imported grey squirrels were first spotted in Britain in 1912. Tolkien would likely have been aware of them only as a rare variety of squirrel.