The Lesser Rings

[littlemanpoet]

Makes one wonder how many weak wraiths were skulking around Mordor or elsewhere.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Makes one wonder how many weak wraiths were skulking around Mordor or elsewhere.

I am pretty sure there are several topics about it... I recall participating in at least one such discussion, if not more. But I think the Morgul-blades (especially if they were "destroyed upon use" type of weapons) were usually used only in special circumstances, against special enemies... not a thing you'd waste on everyone just to make an army of small wraiths... after all, the process of making the blades probably was not so simple...

[littlemanpoet]

Good point.

[Lalwendë]

This makes me wonder if the blade was kept for specific use upon the Ringbearer once he was found. Presumably the Ringwraiths would know that such a weapon would fade once used, so it wouldn't be whipped out just to use on any common or garden enemy?

Have we gone too far off topic yet?

[jallanite]

From The War of the Jewels (HOME 10), page 383:

In S. the word gûl (equivalent to Q ñóle) had less laudatory associations, being used mostly of secret knowledge especially such as possessed by artificers who made wonderful things; and the word became further darkened by its frequent use in the compound morgul ‘black arts’, applied to the delusory or perilous arts and knowledge derived from Morgoth.

This explanation suggests, but does not prove, that when Gandalf uses the term “Morgul-knife”, he is referring to the knife being a knife of black magic rather than to it being made in Minas Morgul. Of course Gandalf might have meant both at once.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by jallanite

From The War of the Jewels (HOME 10), page 383:

In S. the word gûl (equivalent to Q ñóle) had less laudatory associations, being used mostly of secret knowledge especially such as possessed by artificers who made wonderful things; and the word became further darkened by its frequent use in the compound morgul ‘black arts’, applied to the delusory or perilous arts and knowledge derived from Morgoth.

This explanation suggests, but does not prove, that when Gandalf uses the term “Morgul-knife”, he is referring to the knife being a knife of black magic rather than to it being made in Minas Morgul. Of course Gandalf might have meant both at once.

Of course he meant both at once, but I think only because the place name "Morgul" is derived from the word for sorcery.

Also, a sort of "technical" note, even though the HOME offers many sources and notes on background of many things, the title "Morgul-knife", as we speak of it, is used within the context of LotR, where basically the only use of the word "Morgul" is with capital "M" and it is a toponym, the name of either Imlad or Minas Morgul (and derived terms, like captain of Morgul-hosts etc.). It is pretty clear that when somebody is talking about for example "Lieutenant of Morgul", "Morgul-host" or "Morgul-road", he does not mean "Lieutenant of black sorcery" or "army of black sorcery" or even less "Road of black sorcery", but the captain of/army/road belonging to/leading to the particular place. There is no reason to think about the knives otherwise.

Of course the meaning of the word is "dark sorcery" (as one can look it up also e.g. in the short Elven dictionary in Silmarillion, no need to go as far as HOME), and of course upon hearing the name, a person who knows Elvish would get both the connections in his mind. But there is no reason for Gandalf to speak of "Morgul-knife" in front of Frodo, who, even though he knows Elvish, would probably be rather confused at hearing that. If "Morgul-knife" really meant just "knife of dark sorcery", Gandalf could say just that: "You were hit with a cursed blade," perhaps elaborating a bit on that. It would just seem a lot unlike Gandalf to use the Elvish word "morgul" so randomly (as it seems to me) instead of just saying "sorcery" (as a more easily understandable equivalent, if the situation was like you say it was), since Gandalf is not the type of person who would enjoy using complicated terms when there is no reason to use them. In other words, it is as if a doctor-Gandalf told recovered Frodo: "you are suffering from supracondylar fracture of distal humerus" instead of "you broke your arm". I believe real Gandalf would rather use the second formulation.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, a sort of "technical" note, even though the HOME offers many sources and notes on background of many things, the title "Morgul-knife", as we speak of it, is used within the context of LotR, where basically the only use of the word "Morgul" is with capital "M" and it is a toponym, the name of either Imlad or Minas Morgul (and derived terms, like captain of Morgul-hosts etc.). It is pretty clear that when somebody is talking about for example "Lieutenant of Morgul", "Morgul-host" or "Morgul-road", he does not mean "Lieutenant of black sorcery" or "army of black sorcery" or even less "Road of black sorcery", but the captain of/army/road belonging to/leading to the particular place. There is no reason to think about the knives otherwise.

That is not clear to me.

Of course the meaning of the word is "dark sorcery" (as one can look it up also e.g. in the short Elven dictionary in Silmarillion, no need to go as far as HOME), and of course upon hearing the name, a person who knows Elvish would get both the connections in his mind. But there is no reason for Gandalf to speak of "Morgul-knife" in front of Frodo, who, even though he knows Elvish, would probably be rather confused at hearing that.

I went as far as HOME because the HOME reference is fuller.

If "Morgul-knife" really meant just "knife of dark sorcery", Gandalf could say just that: "You were hit with a cursed blade," perhaps elaborating a bit on that. It would just seem a lot unlike Gandalf to use the Elvish word "morgul" so randomly (as it seems to me) instead of just saying "sorcery" (as a more easily understandable equivalent, if the situation was like you say it was), since Gandalf is not the type of person who would enjoy using complicated terms when there is no reason to use them. In other words, it is as if a doctor-Gandalf told recovered Frodo: "you are suffering from supracondylar fracture of distal humerus" instead of "you broke your arm". I believe real Gandalf would rather use the second formulation.

Yes, Gandalf could say that. But he said “Morgul”.

And next chapter the word Morgul-spells appears. And just previously occurs:

And on a time evil things came forth and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it, and they made it into a place of dread and it is called Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery.

I need of course have only gone to that place to indicate that Morgul means ‘Sorcery’. The toponym is Minas Morgul, not just Morgul.

Whether morgul was a reasonably familiar word to Frodo in its basic meaning or not at the time is not clearly indicated one way of the other in The Lord of the Rings. And whether the place name Minas Morgul was known to Frodo before the Council of Elrond is not clearly indicated one way or the other in The Lord of the Rings.

If Frodo knew the word morgul from other occurrences than Minas Morgul than your claim that Gandalf would have been using excessively technical vocabulary if he meant morgul in its primary sense is only special pleading.

Frodo obviously did know much about the earlier history of his world that does not come out in The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf earlier mentions rumors of Sauron that Frodo has previously heard, but that the reader has not. According to Sam in an earlier passage Frodo knows that many Elves are not sailing into the West to never to return, but this is the first time in either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings where there is any mention that Elves (except long ago) ever sailed to the West.

Frodo, in the same chapter, does not realize that the Rangers are the surviving remnant in the North of the “race of the Kings from over the Sea” although he knows somewhat of those people. Presumably Frodo knew that these people came to Middle-earth from an island now sunk into the Sea, but the reader does not get a hint of this until a conversation between Faramir and Éowyn in “The Steward and the King” in The Return of the King and must go to the Appendices for a fuller account.

If even Sam knows about Gil-galad from Bilbo’s teaching, Frodo must have be understood to know much more. Frodo even knows enough Elvish to speak a few words to Gildor in casual conversation.

That for Gandalf to use the word morgul in its primary meaning would be use a word too technical for Frodo to understand is a doubtful proposition. That when the word first appears it is too technical for the reader to understand, even if it means Morgul in Minas Morgul, is quite true. The reader has not yet encountered Minas Morgul. When the reader does it is immediately explained that Morgul means ‘Sorcery’.

Of course, when concerned with the warriors of Minas Morgul and its immediately surroundings, the word morgul is used topologically. Yet the word tirith is not so used in reference to the warriors and surroundings of Minas Tirith. Perhaps it is because the basic meaning of morgul lies closer to the surface and the meaning fits because old Minas Ithil and its surroundings are now a place of black sorcery.

There is no reason to believe that Gandalf did or did not intend Morgul- to mean ‘black sorcery’, ‘the Tower of Minas Morgul’, or both at once.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That is not clear to me.

There is no reason to believe that Gandalf did or did not intend Morgul- to mean ‘black sorcery’, ‘the Tower of Minas Morgul’, or both at once.

It seems clear to me that Gandalf knows the language and thus the meaning of the word.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Yes, Gandalf could say that. But he said “Morgul”.

And that's why I'd say he meant the place rather than the sorcery. Because if he meant the sorcery, he could have used the word "sorcery" in common tongue. The placename of course does not have any synonym, so you have to use "Morgul". And, like Boro showed, the word is used also alone, without "Minas" or "Imlad", simply as a shortened version.

Whether morgul was a reasonably familiar word to Frodo in its basic meaning or not at the time is not clearly indicated one way of the other in The Lord of the Rings. And whether the place name Minas Morgul was known to Frodo before the Council of Elrond is not clearly indicated one way or the other in The Lord of the Rings.

Agreed. But think about it from Gandalf's perspective, as a person who is trying to convey a message to somebody else. We know Frodo knew Elvish, not so much about the placename (though he was well educated), but then again, elsewhere in the books, Gandalf has no problem with speaking about foreign places to people who never heard about them or do not know clearly what they are. But I do not recall any other situation where Gandalf would use a word in foreign language unless it lacked a synonym. And that would be the main reason. (Also, a sort of meta-reason would be that Tolkien does not do that either. He is not the person to throw around completely unintelligible words because it sounds "cool and fantasy", like many - usually cheap - fantasy books nowadays do. So even though I agree with your later conclusions about the usage of the words and the explanation of their meaning in the books etc., I think if Tolkien had written that sentence in that meaning, he would make Gandalf say something like "They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife, a sorcerous blade, which remains in the wound...")

And last of all, with your explanation of "Morgul", I wonder if the term "Morgul-spells" won't be a pleonasm of sorts: meaning "dark magic spells" (it would be enough to say just "dark magic" or "dark spells", I think... I think a linguist like Tolkien wouldn't necessary use that kind of words. But that's just my impression depending on the use of language, which is nothing definite).