The Lesser Rings

[mark12_30]

I have always wondered why "The Voice Of Sauron" was so steenkin' old, without being one of the Nine, and how he wasn't faded, but he wasn't dead either, and how or why that happened. Lesser ring maybe...?

ps. Great point about Beorn, bearskins, and elven experimentation. "But I don't want to be a bear. Who wants this? You do, woodsman? Okay, here, take it."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I do not entirely agree with Inziladun on the power issue. Sure, usurping power for yourself through various means is a bad thing in M-E, but we see these limits crossed many times, especially by proud and gifted people, which the Ring-makers certainly were. Even without the corruption by Sauron, such Rings could have been made.

My point was that such efforts to attain 'unnatural' power don't seem to end well for the aspirants. At any rate, that might make an idea for another thread...

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

In any case, I don't see why the lesser rings would only be made to preserve like the Elven ones; after all, the Three were made for special purpose, but these were not, they were experiments - so the Elves could make them do all sorts of things, where they were just testing what they can do. That could, in fact, have produced even more interesting results than the "true" Rings, because the Elves did not make them with specific purpose - or with necessary the same results they expected. (As in: "I want to make a Ring which will allow me speak with animals, but I have never done that before - lo, I just managed to create a ring that will transform me into a bear!" This might be a bit exaggerated example, but I hope you got the point...)

Healing and preservation seem to be the overriding concern of the Elves. I think, too, that the powers of any ring were limited by the abilities of the maker. The Elves were specially gifted as healers; not as shape-shifters or whatnot.

Originally Posted by radagastly

I'm not so sure I agree (or necessarily disagree) with you on this. I guess it assumes that the lesser rings pre-date Sauron's influence, that he co-opted a line of research that already existed, rather than introducing the idea of including "magic" in the production of jewelry that would otherwise be "just pretty" (but not useful). I suppose your idea would be consistent with the 'arts and crafts' idea of Middle Earth mentioned in another thread (I forget which one, sorry), that the elves would take something that was already useful and make it look pretty, rather than starting with a pretty thing and then finding a use for it. Form following function. I think it's possible that Sauron introduced the idea of "magic" into the elves jewelry-smithing partly (at least) to see which of the elven jewelers had the skills to make the "Great Rings" to which Sauron aspired. I guess I think even the lesser rings were subject to the influence of the One.

In Letters (which I don't have with me at the moment), Tolkien states that the Three, though not made by Sauron personally, were still in the end products of his instruction. That is the only reason they were under the One. Therefore, logically any items produced without Sauron's input should have been exempt from its influence.

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I have always wondered why "The Voice Of Sauron" was so steenkin' old, without being one of the Nine, and how he wasn't faded, but he wasn't dead either, and how or why that happened. Lesser ring maybe...?

Well, we're told the Mouth was a "Black Númenórean", but that doesn't mean he had to be extremely old, or one of the Ar-Pharazôn originals. I always perceived that as merely a description of his heritage, just as as people like Aragorn and Denethor are said to be of the race of Númenor.

[radagastly]

I like the speculation that the ring Saruman wore was one of the lesser rings, but I still think it was one of his own making. Certainly, I think, Gandalf would have "sensed" the difference between the two, while he wore his own ring, if he chose to try. The fact that he never speculated that it was one of the lesser rings seems to indicate that he thought it was Saruman's own manufacture. Good catch on the passage from HoME (The Treason of Isengard). At least there is some more info on these lesser rings.


This discussion does make me more interested in Saruman's research into Ring-making. We know he scoured the Gladden Fields seeking the One. Might he have also journeyed to Hollin seeking long buried little secrets? What about Mordor? If his research preceded The Battle of Five Armies by enough time, he may well have been able to pick through the remnants of the Black Tower or even Sammath Naur despite the fact the Nazgul were holed up in Minas Morgul. What a sticky situation that could have been, if he had been caught.

Originally posted by Mark 12_30:

ps. Great point about Beorn, bearskins, and elven experimentation. "But I don't want to be a bear. Who wants this? You do, woodsman? Okay, here, take it."

I also like this. Certainly it's well established that Beorn was 'just a man.' But he was a man who could change his shape and talk to animals, bend them to his will and need. Why not one of the lesser rings?

Originally posted by Inziladun:

In Letters (which I don't have with me at the moment), Tolkien states that the Three, though not made by Sauron personally, were still in the end products of his instruction. That is the only reason they were under the One. Therefore, logically any items produced without Sauron's input should have been exempt from its influence.

This still presumes that the elves made the lesser rings before Sauron showed up to provide instruction. I guess there are three possibilities here:
1. The elves were making magic rings already, then Sauron showed up and immediately escalated this craft to making the "Great Rings." Therefore, the lesser rings were not created with his input, and so not subject to influence from the One Ring.
2. The elves were making magic rings already, then Sauron showed up and began to improve the craft, making many more lesser rings and eventually helping the elves to develop to the point where the Great Rings were possible. The earliest of the lesser rings would be free from Sauron's input and influence but the later developments would not.
3. The elves were not making magic rings at all until Sauron showed up and introduced them to the process. All the lesser rings would then be subject to the One since they all derived from his instruction.

My own (admittedly personal) opinion is that since Sauron was seeking to trap or trick the elves into subjugation through the Rings, that the most likely scenario is number 3, thus Sauron's pseudonym as the Giver of Gifts. What greater gift could there be than the idea of Ring-lore and their making?