Why are fantasy world accents British?

[Bêthberry]

In part, the answer for Canada is also the various linguistic natures of the cultural groups--Scots, Irish, Ukrainian, German, Italian, Chinese, First Nations (with their own various languages), Dutch, Polish . Yorkshiremen came to Fort York (Toronto) but the Finns went north to Sudbury.

There is also the issue that even the English immigrants themselves did not come with one overwhelmingly similar accent. Given that accents can change, particularly in London, within mere streets of each other, that means there was no primary accent. Add to that there was no aristocracy which imposed its accent as the proper or authoritative one.

In contrast, Australia has developed its own distinctive accent, although I don't know how consistent it is over the entire continent. Perhaps Australia had less of a multi-cultural influx than Canada and the US? It seems to me to have maintained more distinctly English cultural expressions than Canada has. Australia was the destination for the major deportation of convicts from the UK in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, whereas that stopped for North America after the American Insurrection.

The issue is related to Tolkien's own interest in language change. Look at how he explained the changes in the elven languages, based primarily I think on his argument about the influence of geographical separation in what likely were pre-literate conditions. (Note I'm not saying the Elves weren't literate!) I should go check my copy of BoLT and other HoMes . . . . (And so much of what Tolkien wrote about language has not yet been published.)

As for movie accents in fantasy flicks, perhaps if there is a predominance of English accents that simply reflects the sense that fantasy belongs to early ages, the Medieval world, rather than the modern world. Blade Runner offered an interesting view of language change in an SF context.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As for movie accents in fantasy flicks, perhaps if there is a predominance of English accents that simply reflects the sense that fantasy belongs to early ages, the Medieval world, rather than the modern world. Blade Runner offered an interesting view of language change in an SF context.

Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange offers a brilliant use of argot or slang in a dystopian context, as did Orwell in 1984 with Newspeak, the official, acronymal pronouncements of Ingsoc. Victor Hugo in Les Miserables uses argot to great effect in the character Gavroche, who actually epitomizes and introduces the slang that other characters of the lower social orders use.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange offers a brilliant use of argot or slang in a dystopian context, as did Orwell in 1984 with Newspeak, the official, acronymal pronouncements of Ingsoc. Victor Hugo in Les Miserables uses argot to great effect in the character Gavroche, who actually epitomizes and introduces the slang that other characters of the lower social orders use.

The first two I would agree with; Hugo I can't comment on as I haven't read it in French.

But you raise an interesting point: are you suggesting that dystopian books can be classified as fantasy? I've always rather thought of them more in the SF--science fiction--genre (although I recognise there is also something called "speculative fiction").

And another interesting point: how closely does Tolkien come to dystopian vision? He certainly offers hope, but his orcs could fit in Burgess's book, even with their patois. (Sorry, both of these ruminations are off topic.)

What accents did Shagrat et al have in the movies?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The first two I would agree with; Hugo I can't comment on as I haven't read it in French.

But you raise an interesting point: are you suggesting that dystopian books can be classified as fantasy? I've always rather thought of them more in the SF--science fiction--genre (although I recognise there is also something called "speculative fiction").

And another interesting point: how closely does Tolkien come to dystopian vision? He certainly offers hope, but his orcs could fit in Burgess's book, even with their patois. (Sorry, both of these ruminations are off topic.)

What accents did Shagrat et al have in the movies?

I believe sci-fi and fantasy share many of the same attributes, and one only has to watch a movie like Terry Gilliam's Brazil or read Herbert's byzantine recasting of the future in Dune where the lines of sci-fi, dystopia and fantasy are blurred or utterly erased. The same would hold true for an allegory like Orwell's Animal Farm, which could be looked upon as a modern dystopian version of the medieval Reynard the Fox. And sci-fi is merely future fantasy, isn't it? I mean, really, George Lucas borrowed Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces as a blueprint for Star Wars, and created a futuristic monomyth. Just replace the lightsabers with broadswords, Darth Vader with an evil wizard, and Jabba the Hut with an ogre, and voile': Luke Skywalker goes on "The Hero's Journey" with Obi-Wan Kenobi as the stereotypical wise mentor.

Tolkien's dystopia lies in the industrial destruction of the Shire by Sharkey that runs along the lines of Blake's Satanic Mills in England's green and pleasant land, or in the bleak desolation of Mordor with the brooding hordes of broken orcs ruminating among the rack and ruin. Or perhaps in the Saruman's Orthanc, which has become, for all intents and purposes, a Stalinist armament factory with its collective of subservient orcs (not that Tolkien used such allegory, mind).

Shagrat really had no discernible accent, did he? It was more guttural grunts, with perhaps a bit of stock pirate undertones.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I believe sci-fi and fantasy share many of the same attributes, and one only has to watch a movie like Terry Gilliam's Brazil or read Herbert's byzantine recasting of the future in Dune where the lines of sci-fi, dystopia and fantasy are blurred or utterly erased. The same would hold true for an allegory like Orwell's Animal Farm, which could be looked upon as a modern dystopian version of the medieval Reynard the Fox. And sci-fi is merely future fantasy, isn't it? I mean, really, George Lucas borrowed Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces as a blueprint for Star Wars, and created a futuristic monomyth. Just replace the lightsabers with broadswords, Darth Vader with an evil wizard, and Jabba the Hut with an ogre, and voile': Luke Skywalker goes on "The Hero's Journey" with Obi-Wan Kenobi as the stereotypical wise mentor.

I think there's a continuum between the two extremes of science and mythology (for want of better descriptors) which encompasses all Speculative Fiction, some leaning more towards one end than the other, so it doesn't surprise me that Tolkien was interested also in those writers/works usually referred to as science fiction, such as Issac Asimov.

Tolkien's dystopia lies in the industrial destruction of the Shire by Sharkey that runs along the lines of Blake's Satanic Mills in England's green and pleasant land, or in the bleak desolation of Mordor with the brooding hordes of broken orcs ruminating among the rack and ruin. Or perhaps in the Saruman's Orthanc, which has become, for all intents and purposes, a Stalinist armament factory with its collective of subservient orcs (not that Tolkien used such allegory, mind).

Certainly the dystopian elements are present in Tolkien. But what you have really got me wondering about is whether he is acknowledged by dystopian writers as an influence, as those who write more directly in the fantasy vein acknowledge him. I can think of many, many discussion here and elsewhere which examine Tolkien's influence in fantasy, but off hand I can't think of any that examine the debt of the dystopians to him.

Shagrat really had no discernible accent, did he? It was more guttural grunts, with perhaps a bit of stock pirate undertones.

I think Tolkien was responsible for a few "Nars". But don't they, in the book, have almost a bit of the wiff of working class blokes with their ready condemnation of the powers that be and their calling Shelob her "Ladyship" ? I wouldn't push this speculation, as it's their atttitude that is highlighted, a dearth of elegance, civility, compassion and a heavy dose of self-centeredness and cruelty and I certainly don't mean to imply that Tolkien harboured class snobbery.

It might be fun to compare their speech with Tolkien's criticism of modern English to see if there is any linguistic similarity.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

"We ain't goin' no further 'til we've 'ad a breather!"

That is all.