Part of the mind of Ilúvatar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't believe that. First, of course, I am rather convinced the term "first creations of Ilúvatar" cannot be understood in the temporal sense: as in, they were created as the first two. If for nothing else, then because the time itself did not exist back then yet (Timeless halls and all that prove that point, I'd say). I always thought the Ainur came into being more or less "at the same time", if you can use that expression.

How else does one explain the "coeval"="contemporary" situation then? All the Valar are brethren, but why would all necessarily have to have been thought into being at the same instance? I'm not saying that wasn't the case, but I don't think it's clear one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And even if you can't - well, we are speaking about transcendental things here which cannot be spoken about in our terms, only metaphorically (because how can you speak about something that was before existence, right? Not to speak of, "before" time..). So even if Manwë and Melkor were the first creations of Ilúvatar and "came to being before all the others" (speaking metaphorically) - now what does it mean? It all comes down to that they share some priority, which is not temporal, but in their, well, power. Potential. Abilities. Call it whatever you will. And we are then back again at what I have been talking about... they simply do have equal potential.

If we're talking "power" on one hand versus "authority" on the other though, both are derived from the same source: the Creator. That being the case, I would think power would be trumped by authority, which should make Manwe the stronger of the two, in my opinion.Yet, we are indeed told that Melkor was the greatest of the Valar.

That's the reason I favor the “Yin-Yang" approach. The two of them could be connected in the mind of Eru by being opposites; Manwe being the "anti-Melkor"', there to oversee and ensure the Creator's purposes are pursued, as opposed to Melkor seeking to tear down and rebuild to his own designs.