TIG XCIII - Betrayal at Henneth Annûn (Game thread)

[Glirdan]

Okay....I kinda understand Agan's (and others) frustrations yesterDay with all of the IC posting and banter. It was rather irksome having to read through them again (for a good page at least I may add) and not have anything overly substantial to read.

Anyways, in my reading I noticed something. Lottie seems very....wish washy I think is the term I am looking for. This could just be me and my tendency of suspecting Lottie. She starts off with this

Originally Posted by Lottie

Really, though, that much defensiveness about a Day 1, semi-IC post (from a first-time player, no less) makes me think that you might have something to hide. G55 just jumped to the top of my suspect list.

This happens to be her second post of the Day and already has G55 at the top of her suspect list for being overly defensive apparently. I don't see the over defensiveness by the way.

When Boro starts explaing his leeriness of Agan, he says this:

Originally Posted by Boro

And we have the classic "let me give you all some suspicions, see which ones stick, but distract you with threatening to vote those who are being less helpful at the moment" trick. That is to say, you were willing to vote based on either being annoyed, or to scare Bom, Glirdan, and sally into shaping up and NOT based on suspicions...yet you did the whole "let me give you some suspicions" thing well enough. And it seems to have worked since Lottie has now jumped on your comment about G55 being "jumpy"...wow we are a jumping bunch today.

And at the end of the post:

Originally Posted by Boro

(See what I mean Agan? Lottie jumps at your jumpy comment, and now Pomegranate follows Lottie)

As soon as she reads this post, Lottie starts changing her tune.

Originally Posted by Lottie

You know, I didn't even realize that I was following Agan's comment when I said mine until I saw that bolded in your post! It's the sort of thing you pass over when reading the rest of the post, but sticks in your mind...now I'm wondering if my thinking G55 suspicious was even my idea in the first place, or just my subconcious picking that up.

What's really bothering me is how easily swayed she is by others and its things like that that make me leery. Trying to appease everyone is a tactic seen and used many times before by wolves, or BN's in our case. Now, I will give her credit for sticking to her guns and voting for G55 anyways. Yet she was a part of the reason we lost our Guardian, and if I'm correct, the leading cause. Now, it's quite possible that Lottie is simply a misled innocent and I wouldn't mind hearing a little more from her myself.

However, there are others who voted for G55 who need to be looked at it....or in Shasta's case, need to be heard from.

For now, I'm off. It's getting kinda late and I didn't sleep well last night. I will be back later in the Day.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Anyways, in my reading I noticed something. Lottie seems very....wish washy I think is the term I am looking for.

Really? You know, I do sort of expect you to suspect me at least a little bit by now, but I like to understand where you're coming from when you do. I started off with one post suspecting G55, was taken aback when I realized I'd practically quoted Agan without knowing it, read over G55 and Agan's posts for a bit, decided it wasn't nessecarily that bad, and continued suspecting G55. You seem to be reading my posts as a continuous stream of suspicion with a sudden 180 in the middle. It was more of a sudden stop, look around, think for a moment, and then continue sort of deal. Again, issue with the term "wishy-washy".

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I thought the choice to kill Nogrod was fairly straight forward, but apparently I was wrong. Any BN that does not jump at the chance to make a no trace kill of Nogrod, would not be doing their job properly. The only reasons not to do it, would be if they suspected that Nogrod would get himself lynched or that he was being protected at night.

Crossed with Loslote

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I dont know about that one. I'm more inclined to agree with Boro. I mean, with the exception of Nate, we all know how dangerous an innocent/gifted Noggy is to the Wolves. Its already been said: why him? Well, it was a pretty traceless kill for them. Yet the same could be said had it been myself, or Shasta or any of the other quiet ones. I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

I don't really see the benefit of trying to gauge the "nervousness' of the pack from their Night-kill. I think it's enough that it seems very unlikely Nog could have been seen as a potential Seer. Thus, there is little to gain at this point by still focusing on the issue.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, I hate picking on Newbies....yet something about Nate's first post toDay does not sit well. I'm not sure what it is....maybe it's her wording....maybe it's the over sincerity of having forgotten to vote yesterDay. Okay. Now I'm going to go re-read (and read) yesterDay's posts. I'll be around but it may take me awhile to respond. *grumbles about the lack of a desktop computer/lapto and lack of Internet*

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

What's really bothering me is how easily swayed she is by others and its things like that that make me leery. Trying to appease everyone is a tactic seen and used many times before by wolves, or BN's in our case. Now, I will give her credit for sticking to her guns and voting for G55 anyways. Yet she was a part of the reason we lost our Guardian, and if I'm correct, the leading cause. Now, it's quite possible that Lottie is simply a misled innocent and I wouldn't mind hearing a little more from her myself.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Glirdan has a point here, which has similarities to the point Greenie was after yesterDay. However, Lottie was the first one to come up with a lot of the points about G55, first one to actually start accusing her, and that would seem such forwardiness that if she was a wolf and knew G55 to be innocent she should've avoided. That kind of action would (and probably will) put her in the spotlight.

Also, Lottie's vote for G55 wasn't the first, that was Shasta's. But Lottie crossed with Shasta so she thought she was making the first vote there.
Now, starting a bandwagon isn't necessarily a terrible risk for baddies, but I thought Lottie's case was sound enough by Day One standards.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

I think we should keep frying Lottie a bit, to see what she's up to, but I myself worry more about the follow-ups. Especially Inzil. In her voting-post, she says (gosh, I'm so bad with these, my apologies for everyone who changes genders in my posts) :

"I don't have any takers on sally"? I don't think she ever suggested voting for sally, or suspected her, unless it counts that in her list she mentions "could be voteworthy as a submarine", this being on the penultimate place on her list. This mentioning sally and the others in the voting post seems to me more like trying to hide the fact that she is voting for G55, like she would be reluctant. However, she and Agan are the one who finalise G55's faith by their last-minute votes.

First off, it is he in my case. I know the player details can be confusing. A perusal of the thread whence came this might help to clear up some of the ambiguity.

The only ones I felt comfortable voting for when it came to it were G55 and Sally. Since it was obvious no one else was concerned about Sally, I went with G55.
Some say one should vote for whomever one finds suspicious, regardless of circumstances, but I don't think that's useful. A throwaway vote is a wasted vote.

[Pomegranate]

But the fact is, you didn't actually voice your concerns about sally either. If you would've actually wanted for other people to follow your lead, you could've at least said it out, preferably outside of your list. Now it just feels like you didn't want to actually start accusing her (because someone might've noticed that if she was killed and an ordo), you hoped someone else would, and when they did not you just followed everyone else.

And in this I agree with Rune, I saw the kill of Nogrod as a straightforward thing, that's why I didn't comment it on my first post. From what I know about him, I'm not surprised he's good in this game (you'd all be surprised about how much I know about you, bwaha - thank you, my close IRL darlings). Plus by killing him they didn't rise any suspicions on anyone in particular, which is an easy solution.

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

edit. Ugly spelling.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

But the fact is, you didn't actually voice your concerns about sally either. If you would've actually wanted for other people to follow your lead, you could've at least said it out, preferably outside of your list. Now it just feels like you didn't want to actually start accusing her (because someone might've noticed that if she was killed and an ordo), you hoped someone else would, and when they did not you just followed everyone else.

At the time I made that list DL was almost there. All the votes at that time had been for G55, Bom, and Lottie. No one was even talking about Sally, and I had to make up my mind in a hurry.

Take it as you like.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

Noted.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Lottie

Really? You know, I do sort of expect you to suspect me at least a little bit by now, but I like to understand where you're coming from when you do. I started off with one post suspecting G55, was taken aback when I realized I'd practically quoted Agan without knowing it, read over G55 and Agan's posts for a bit, decided it wasn't nessecarily that bad, and continued suspecting G55. You seem to be reading my posts as a continuous stream of suspicion with a sudden 180 in the middle. It was more of a sudden stop, look around, think for a moment, and then continue sort of deal. Again, issue with the term "wishy-washy".

I wasn't too comfortable with that term myself. And as I said at the end of the post, I give you credit for sticking to G55 and voting for her regardless, or did you miss that bit? I'm still leery about you. However, Zil also brought up an excellent point in your defense: you had though you voted first. Voting first an sticking to your guns as much as you had is way too bold a move for a Wolf, especially this early in the game. Yet you're not entirely off my radar.

And may I inquire as to why it is so quiet?? Where is everyone. *goes to airport to fly to everyone's house just to tell them to start posting*

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

Oh? Well, I guess then I don't need these anymore, if I decide to start going after you? *takes off fluffy-soft gloves*

In all seriousness, it definitely appears you know the game well, so I for one, will no longer treat you newbily. Which may not be a pleasant thing, but it would help if I actually suspected you seriously for something.

And since I basically agree with you on Inzil, I'm more inclined to trust you for the time being.

I know when he's busy he can seem rushed and agreeing. But he also should know by now saying you want to hear more from sally and Bom is like just saying something to say it. If that makes sense? They're easy targets for wolves because it's easy to get people to agree "vote for the submarines!"

But I know they're also frustrating for wolves, because if you don't say anything, than wolves can't twist anything to make it look bad. See, me, it's easy. If the wolves really wanted to get me lynched I'm sure they can find a bunch of stuff to manipulate and use against me...the trouble is I bombard with long and fanciful posts, it's overwhelming and usually not worth the effort. Much easier to continue the "sally and Bom need to say more" argument...when in fact you know

1) They won't

leading to...

2) Easier to convince innocents to lynch 'em

This is at least where I understand Rune's frustration, since he's been out of the dynamics for a while, and probably hasn't played with many of us...I can't remember the last time I played a game with Rune. Anyway, he seems genuinely not used to this many submarines and fluff posters.

Edit: Believe it or not crossed with Glirdan...visitor came who I had to entertain briefly.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As has been said, it looks like laying odds that Nog was taken out while it was safe to do so is probably what happened.

Going through Day 2 thus far now -

Originally Posted by Boro

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

That does have me concerned, to be honest. Could be just that I'm me and you're you, though.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I dont know about that one. I'm more inclined to agree with Boro. I mean, with the exception of Nate, we all know how dangerous an innocent/gifted Noggy is to the Wolves. Its already been said: why him? Well, it was a pretty traceless kill for them. Yet the same could be said had it been myself, or Shasta or any of the other quiet ones. I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

Eh? I'm not really sure what you're saying here, because it looks like you're agreeing with Boro in one breath and then suspecting him in the next.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

However, there are others who voted for G55 who need to be looked at it....or in Shasta's case, need to be heard from.

*raises eyebrow* Really now.

I'm going to ignore that comment for now, save for one of my own about stones and glass houses, and focus on your theory regarding Lottie - which is interesting; however it doesn't look any different to me than normal D1 Lottie when there's nothing yet to go on. In fact, I've seen worse from Lottie than "jumpiness" (generally something to do with something someone posted in IC.)

Originally Posted by Inzil

I don't really see the benefit of trying to gauge the "nervousness' of the pack from their Night-kill. I think it's enough that it seems very unlikely Nog could have been seen as a potential Seer. Thus, there is little to gain at this point by still focusing on the issue.

This is an issue I have every game - I don't understand why people decide not to look at the information that's right in front of them. Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

Originally Posted by Inzil

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

This is probably one of the more specious reasons I've seen for suspecting someone. However, it's generally a given that a newbie is considered "hard to lynch" in their first game, so I don't really see Inzilawolf making an effort to lynch an innocent Nate. Still.

Originally Posted by Nate[/quote

Shastanis Althreduin votes for G55 for her habit of trying to move the conversation away from herself. This is the only observation she makes. Says she won’t vote for Rune, saying she agrees with what he said without further defining why.

Heh. It's actually "he".

Originally Posted by Boro

But I know they're also frustrating for wolves, because if you don't say anything, than wolves can't twist anything to make it look bad. See, me, it's easy. If the wolves really wanted to get me lynched I'm sure they can find a bunch of stuff to manipulate and use against me...the trouble is I bombard with long and fanciful posts, it's overwhelming and usually not worth the effort. Much easier to continue the "sally and Bom need to say more" argument...when in fact you know

1) They won't

leading to...

2) Easier to convince innocents to lynch 'em

I don't know that I agree with this - generally that leads to...

3) Deciding "we can't afford to waste a lynch on a submarine - if they win they don't deserve it" and moving on.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Bllllrg. As Glirdan said, awfully quiet today. Maybe the wolves are trying to keep their heads down?

I wasn't really bothered by PomPom's swift skill - I assumed she'd done what I did, which was to read several games before actually joining one (or the 'Downs themselves). I did consider the alternative but since it was D1 at the time, she got a newbie pass.

Regarding this:

Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

from Shasta, I do believe the problem is: what information? Nog made a total of four posts, all substance-less with the exception of a statement that he thinks both Boro and Agan innocent. No suspicions, and nobody suspected him.

So, we've basically got the same things to discuss as yesterday, except we're now two innocents closer to defeat.

I'll check in periodically to see if the aforementioned wolves decide to poke their heads up, and possibly to mingle with you commons. No promises, though.