The Grey Havens

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Gandalf, Legolas and Sam pass over to the Grey Havens, right? What exactly are the Grey Havens? What is the nature of the lad? I'm VERY new to LOTR so I'm a little clueless about some of this stuff. Also, would going to the Grey Havens or "Undying Lands" mean that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli have eternal life?

The Grey Havens are the harbors on the northwestern coast of Middle-earth from which elves were departing west to Aman in the Third Age.

Tolkien addressed the matter of the mortals reaching Aman in a few of his collected letters, each explaining that the ringbearers (and Gimli) found peace there, but eventually passed away, just as all mortals had to.

"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world." (Letter 154)

"'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." (Letter 246)

"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing." (Letter 325)

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Originally Posted by Kath

Which rather begs the question ... why go? For Frodo the answer is clear, less so for the others.

I think this is answered well in the letters quoted above. Sam and Bilbo share the same 'clear' reason as Frodo - to give some relief to the mental wound from the Ring.

Gimli had grown so much in his love for elves, both Legolas and Galadriel, that it would've been a sad burden to stay behind in Middle-earth; he comes by a special favor granted Galadriel.
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Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

The fate of the Elves sounds rather cruel...That if they stayed they'd forget their own natures and be relegated to caves and hidden places. They were the most beautiful of ME's peoples, and seemingly the wisest and purest in nature. However, you make it sound like if they did go to the Undying Lands they would retain the full beauty and glory of their nature...Am I correct in reading it that way?

The events of the books, late in Third Age, are meant to wrap up the age of elves and wizards, completing the transition of the world to the age of men. This was destined to happen. The elves had their 'time' in the world through the First Age onwards. I think it's shown that Middle-earth changes too quickly for their long lives. In their immortality, they find themselves strangers in a strange world where everything else ages and dies in endless cycles while they continued unchanged. As such, they try to preserve, embalm as much as they can, but in Aman, they will find that comes naturally.

{Sidenote: Upon awakening in the early days of Arda, most of the elves traveled directly to Aman (known as the Great Journey) and remained there. Only a portion strayed from the journey and stuck around Beleriand/Middle-earth, and later another portion returned for something special (long story, that!). If you enjoy this, you've got to read The Silmarillion!}

It is time for the mortal races to inherit the world, becoming its only primary stewards. Gandalf explains as much towards the end of Book 6, Chapter 5 'The Steward And The King.' After the situation in Gondor is resolved and Aragorn is made king, Gandalf takes him out onto Mindolluin one night. As dawn comes, Gandalf shows Aragorn all the land below which he is to rule, and charges him the responsibility.

And Gandalf said, 'This is your realm, and the heart of the greater realm that shall be. The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended. And all the lands that you see, and those that lie around them, shall be dwellings of Men. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'

'I know it well dear friend,' said Aragorn; 'but I would still have your counsel.'

'Not for long now,' said Gandalf. 'The Third Age was my age. I was the enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.''

This is one of the important underlying themes of the book - ultimately why such potent entities as the wizards and elven lords did not directly intervene or act against Sauron this time around, the purpose behind Manwe sending a few Maiar as old wizards (Gandalf, Saruman, the other three), and Gandalf's decision to put the Ring in the hands of a small, simple hobbit.

The wizards and elves (Elrond, Galadriel) could've attempted to accomplish these things on their own, but since their time was fading, the idea was to nudge the mortal races to grow in stature and save the world from evil on their own. The immortals wouldn't always be around to weld their strength everytime an enemy cropped up and threatened peace and life. The mortals would eventually have to fight their own battles.

A bit of 'grow up, son!' from Gandalf to Aragorn.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

That's logical.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

Well, there had to have been settlements nearby, but I don't think habitation was the primary purpose of the Havens.


On a different note, going back to Frodo and Sam's motives for leaving, I think what's already been said does apply, but could there have been another factor for those two?

HOME XII has an interesting chapter on lembas, and there it is said that the Eldar did not allow mortals to use that waybread, except under very special circumstances. The Elves had been instructed from the first that if mortals ate too much of it, they would grow weary of mortality and long for "the fields of Aman, to which they cannot come".

Frodo and Sam would seem to have eaten more of the lembas than any other members of the Fellowship, and they ate it alone as well, which was said to increase its virtue. Could that also have increased its other effects, causing Frodo and Sam to yearn for immortal lands?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

I've also wondered if the Grey Haven's might have been a sort of "way station". Based on the description, most of the regualar boats were crafts of at least reasonable size, and so would need a decent size crew* (maybe 10 or so, or double that if elves tire and need to work in shifts). Since all trips from the Grey Havens are essentially one way, that means that each trip needs about a dozen people. Unless elves tend to get the call en-masse, or form alliances where the weary agree to wait until fellow elves get weary before they leave, this would mean that every now and then, an elf might need somewhere to wait till there was a sufficent party for a voyage (this seems not to have happened in the case of the Fellowship, but by that time elves were leaving fairly frequently, so finding five to seven others might not be hard.) The Grey havens might be there for just that purpose, an Elven community that, amongst other things, houses waiting elves until their turn comes up.

* Legolas in all probabilty did not take anyone except Gimli with him, but Legolas built his own boat, and presumably bult a smaller one, that only needed a crew of 2 (or 1 to allow him and Gimli to share the work) Even so, I imagine that, in terms of sheer labor, Legolas and Gimli had a somewhat more arduous and strenuous trip than most to the Grey Havens.

[Elmo]

I think they would have done what Nimrodel and Amroth tried to do and sail to Aman straight from the mouths of the Anduin.

[Guinevere]

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Perhaps the smell of sea-air awakens in Elves some sort of latent affinity that gives them the ability to learn the craft of shipbuilding and the art of sailing quickly.

Maybe it's part of the music of Ulmo, which calls to all the Eldar.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Well, first consider that he had, by that time, been living in Ithilien for close to 120 years - plenty of time to learn the art from Gondorian shipwrights at Pelargir or Dol-Amroth. Having the sea-longing already awakened in him, he would have been anticipating the time when he would finally "follow the longing in his heart" and sail away -- and would have been looking to develop his learning.

Also, when it says "he built a grey ship in Ithilien", it doesn't need to be interpreted that he built it "single-handed". The learning, then, would be developed in his community. And that could well have been assisted by contact with Mithlond in the North (as well has Gondor) for, while Cirdan had left, nothing reports that ALL of the mariners chose to leave at that time.

Similarly, while it suggests that he took Gimli with him, it never says they were the ONLY two persons on the ship.

So, I suggest he took the 120 years to, among other things, develop a community of mariners (drawing on the ship learning of Gondor and Mithlond), build a sea-worthy ship, and (at the end) captain a ship on which Gimli was a passenger (and companion) but which was sailed by a band of Elves led by Legolas.

[Mithalwen]

HAd Cirdan left? I thought he stayed on after the Ringbearers..

Sailing does need practice but we know Elves are quick learners and Legolas had handled small boats all his lfe.

My cousin has been dinghy sailing since early childhood and was a qualified dayskipper in his teens and yachtmaster at 20 He is just 25 an officer in the Royal Navy and qualified to steer warships. And could have been a couple of years sooner had he joined straight from university. There have been a few teenage solo circumnavigators so it isn't impossible to gain a high level of competence young. Yes they have the benefit of technology now but I suspect that the main issue is the right to take the Straight road rather than technical competence.