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08-28-2010, 07:28 PM | #121 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Oh, hello, "tumil"!
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So I don't know why that particular post sent the Potter fangirl bananas, actually. Incidentally, I'm rather curious as to where the young lady got all her theories about Merlin and fascism from, since I'm pretty sure she was bluffing about having read "Lord of the Rings".
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 08-28-2010 at 09:48 PM. Reason: added comment. |
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08-28-2010, 09:48 PM | #122 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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This is indeed an interesting thread.
I started reading the HP books around 2003, mainly because my wife had read them, and I found myself conscripted to go with her and see the movies. I was surprised to find myself enjoying them, though it got a bit predictable by the time Books 6 and 7 rolled around. Quote:
Tolkien does that some too though, doesn't he? Frodo and Sam come to mind. Frodo, in pretty much the first half of FOTR, and Sam in ROTK. Not to mention Bilbo in The Hobbit. But there are certainly differences in the ways the information is presented to the reader from one author to the other. A nice summary! Rowling doesn't have the narrative or linguistic chops to stand with Tolkien at the end of the day (I'd never have spent ten years hanging around a J.K.Rowling forum!), but the HP books are pleasant enough for what they are.
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08-29-2010, 01:31 AM | #123 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Oh wow this thing is older than an Egyptian coffin. I frankly feel Rowling DID rip off a few things, but not exactly the entire plot. Also, I don't find Dobby and Gollum all that similar. But Old Man Willow and than strange Whomping Willow are too alike for my liking Not to mention Gandalf and Dumbledore.
Then again, most contemporary fantasy authors have, either consciously or unconsciously, ripped something off LotR.
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08-29-2010, 02:06 PM | #124 |
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For myself, HP and the works of Tolkien were different in one very profound way: Rowling was telling a story. Tolkien was attempting to create a mythology. The depth of thought and work that goes into the latter runs far deeper, IMHO — and it was something I appreciated even when I first read LotR at age 11, back in the mid 1960s. I still appreciate it today. HP didn't work for me the first time I read the word "muggle." But to explain all the whys and wherefores would take more energy than I have at the moment (and possibly take years and cost millions of lives ).
As to the person with the venomous "I'm right" attitude — alas, I've seen that so often over the years, it's something I've come to expect the minute someone begins any discussion comparing one thing to another. "My current favorite fandom, right or wrong (and next week, I'll have a new fave and be dumping just as viciously on what I'm defending today)" is an attitude that apparently grew quite common with the expansion of a media-oriented culture. Rowling borrowed from Tolkien. So did Terry Brooks and Stephen Donaldson and a lot of other writers. Where the line between homage and rip-off lies is always vague, but is usually a question of how much of the work is "borrowed," and the amount of original thought the author put into it. * All IMHO, as ever.
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09-05-2010, 02:53 PM | #125 |
Blithe Spirit
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The Downs have become more literate over the years, that's for sure. Some of the spelling, punctuation and syntax back there...*shudder*
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09-05-2010, 07:21 PM | #126 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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By the by, note that I am not accusing Rowlings of anything sinister or untoward. I just happened to be reading 'Stone' and noticed that Harry woke up to a bedside Wizard that was able to fill us all in on the last scene.
The HP books are cute, readable, though having read books 1-4 I'm starting to get a little irked at some of the typecasting (i.e. character X always does this). Then again, the Silmarillion has its repetitions...
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09-13-2010, 07:16 AM | #127 |
Fluttering Enchantment
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I recently watched the 6th film, and they made it his right hand ring finger for the movie. I found that quite funny. And it is strange he'd pick that finger, losing a pinky makes far more sense.
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09-13-2010, 05:08 PM | #128 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Everyone seems to draw the link between Dumbledore and Gandalf.
I disagree that Dumbledore is too close to Gandalf for comfort, well rather agree and disagree. They are extremely similar no doubt, however they both fill an Archetype. Merlin and his apprentice, certainly come to mind. |
09-21-2010, 11:23 AM | #129 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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That, I am afraid, just reminds me of bad fan fiction T_T
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12-17-2010, 12:26 PM | #130 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
Why this today? I've been reading the following: Quote:
Is there a word that, today in RL, you do not speak as you feel that, by naming it, you bring about misfortune?
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12-17-2010, 01:28 PM | #131 |
Gruesome Spectre
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The terror that is GaGa.
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12-17-2010, 01:47 PM | #132 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Now you've gone and done it!
*awaits the apocalypse*
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12-17-2010, 03:11 PM | #133 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Aside from the similarities already mentioned, there is one that really jumped out at me when I read HP1. That random centaur, Firenze, who saves Harry in the Forbidden Forest plays exactly Gildor's role. Even the dialogue is similar. Then, you can't destory Sauron without destroying the Ring, in which he put a good chunk of his power; you can't destroy Voldemort without destroying the Horcruxes, which contain his soul. Btw, I heard that some JRRT fan sued Rowling for this one . And Aragog is an exact copy of Shelob.
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12-17-2010, 03:20 PM | #134 | |
Late Istar
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12-17-2010, 03:28 PM | #135 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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12-17-2010, 03:37 PM | #136 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Sort of. I like LOTR WAAAY better. In LOTR feelings=emotions, in HP, feelings=facts. simple enough for kids, but very boring for people like e. What surprises me about HP, though, is that I know many "almost-adults" completely nuts about it.
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12-17-2010, 06:32 PM | #137 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Also, HP is action action action. Most of the "interesting parts" are the ones with action, and when there isn't that much of it, the book just sounds soooo boring and tedious. On the other hand, when you read LOTR, even though action is involved, its by far not the most important thing. The book isn't based on action, but JRRT used some action to illustrate some ideas. And the parts without any action are just as good, and carry just as many (if not more) messages.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
12-18-2010, 08:03 PM | #138 | |
Wight
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You can't compare Voldemort to Sauron because books set in the fantasy world usually tend to have a "Dark Lord". But that really doesn't mean she stole anything from JRRT, I mean honestly, how many of you have actually created something and then a few days later you find that someone else has an idea very similar to yours and is writing about it. Are you going to jump to conclusions and shout plagiarism? What if that person has never even read what you first created? No doubt if you go to other fantasy themed books you'll find smaller or larger similarities to Tolkien's works. JK was influenced by MacBeth, the Iliad, the Pardoner's Tale from the Canterbury Tales, Chronicles of Narnia, etc. She even gives props to Tolkien in an interview saying how he created a whole new mythology, something in which she never could have hoped to accomplish. Other than that her books are NOTHING like the Lord of the Rings. I love both series and think both to be brilliant writers.
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~|And all will turn, to silver glass. A light on the water, Grey ships pass, Into the West. |~ "Few now remember them...yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folks that are heedless." Last edited by xMellrynxMaidenx; 12-18-2010 at 08:08 PM. |
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12-18-2010, 08:12 PM | #139 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I've read all the HP books, and still I insist that there are a lot of similarities. But yes, Mellyrn's right about the fact that they are different. Their ideas are different, but there are many physical similarities. What do you think of this comproise?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
12-18-2010, 08:24 PM | #140 |
Wight
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I think it seems fair enough
The fact of the matter is, no matter what you'll have some of us who will still love the series despite the similarities and then there's some that won't like it. Just a matter of preference, really. The same goes for any series, really.
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~|And all will turn, to silver glass. A light on the water, Grey ships pass, Into the West. |~ "Few now remember them...yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folks that are heedless." |
12-18-2010, 08:31 PM | #141 | |
Wight
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I call it the Series That Shall Not Be Named, in my house. Of course, my mother doesn't find it the least bit amusing.
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~|And all will turn, to silver glass. A light on the water, Grey ships pass, Into the West. |~ "Few now remember them...yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folks that are heedless." |
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12-18-2010, 09:33 PM | #142 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I am not a big fan of HP, but not because of its similarities to LOTR. Without comparing it to anything, its not really a book that I'd be nuts about. And yes, it really depends on which book you personally prefer. hopefully we won't get any arguments about that from anyone!
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12-20-2010, 01:41 PM | #143 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I'm not nearly nuts about HP; however, I do find them an entertaining and enjoyable read. The movies are far better than the LotR ones, though now that I've read the HP books, I can see where the directors made changes that might have angered the fans. But LotR will still be my favorite. And similarities can always be found between any two items - that's the beauty of cloud watching and Rorschach ink blots. But anyway, I can understand Tolkien building on the older custom of not naming 'evil,' but Rowling's world is somewhat contemporaneous with ours, so...
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12-22-2010, 10:40 AM | #144 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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For lack of a better word I said "almost adults", meaning people around their 20s. Their too old to be teenagers, but too young to be adults.
I was probably a bit harsh when I said that feelings=facts in HP; they are close to, though, in my opinion. HP just doesn't leave that kind of message that Tolkien does. For example, sometimes when I wanna refrain myself from doing something bad, I say "don't be a Celegorm" (since he annoys me the most), but I never say something like "don't be a Kreacher". The books simpy have a very different effect on me. HP is addicting but not as deep as Tolkien's books. Its just like... once you read Tolkien, it's part of you; HP remains a book. Its's just not as strong. And again, this is my opinion; you might say otherwise. Hurray! It's my 500th post!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 12-23-2010 at 12:51 PM. |
01-10-2011, 09:06 AM | #145 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I'm halfway through "The Deathly Hallows," and it's even more obvious that HP and LotR have very little in common.
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01-10-2011, 05:11 PM | #146 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Well, if Rowling really copied it to that extend, she'd be sued for copyright.
It's very hard to make a story that doesn't resemble even a little bit some other author's book. And sometimes you unintentionally "copy" things. Many a time I've caught myself rewriting a scene or using a quote from some book when doing creative writing in English class. If I really think about it, I can detect "Tolkien scenes/characters" in almost any book I've read. So, personally, I forgive JKR for stealing some ideas from JRRT.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
01-11-2011, 12:52 AM | #147 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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True that But either way, I don't think she's ripped it off. I just think she's done a slightly clichéd fantasy: the search of a magical object, to be found by a 'chosen' person.
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01-11-2011, 01:01 AM | #148 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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01-11-2011, 06:16 AM | #149 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Apologies to all HP fans; I couldn't help it
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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01-11-2011, 09:33 AM | #150 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Depth is relative.
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01-12-2011, 02:30 AM | #151 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Believe it or not, my best friend didn't talk to me for two days because I said HP wasn't literature
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01-12-2011, 02:31 AM | #152 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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HAHA! Series That Shall Not Be Named! I salute to you!
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01-12-2011, 08:49 AM | #153 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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The orphaned Wart may have had a more kindlier guardian/adopted father in Sir Ector, but his circumstances as a second-class son to Kay are the same as Potter, as is the absent-minded Merlin's tutelage and interest in Wart comparable to Dumbledore/Potter.
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11-29-2011, 09:03 PM | #154 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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On the other hand...
Read the Deathly Hallows, but the second installment of the movie is more in my mind. Snape, in a pensieve flashback, accuses Dumbledore of keeping Harry alive just long enough to be killed/sacrificed at the right moment, when Voldemort would be at his weakest. Snape, rightfully or no, states that Dumbledore does not care for Harry, and sees the Headmaster only thinking of the Potter as a pawn to be used/thrown away in a larger game. Couldn't Gandalf be so accused, helping Frodo along the way to Mordor, knowing that most likely he would not survive the quest?
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11-30-2011, 06:27 AM | #155 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Gandalf certainly thought along the lines of another wise individual, however. Also, I think it's noteworthy that both Dumbledore and Gandalf allow themselves to be sacrificed for the greater good, affirming their true belief in their respective causes.
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11-30-2011, 05:22 PM | #156 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I don't like comparing Gandalf to Dumbledore. Even though they have a similar "mentor" task/role and do many similar things (uch as sacrifice themselves), and even look somewhat alike - but to me they are completely different characters.
One thing that contributes to that opinion is that Gandalf is initially good, wise, etc, and Dumbledore is quite the opposite until he sees the error of his ways. I am not saying that either one is better, but I can't say that comming in to the world with wisdom and missing becoming a Voldemort by a milimeter is not the same thing. Moreover, although both like a good laugh, Dumbledore overdoes it a bit. Gandalf always has a wise word in his pocket, even for the fattest of hobbits. Dumbledore is sometimes a bit... nuts. I cannot see Gandalf saying half the things Dumbledore said, or did. Gandalf wouldn't accept Dumbledore's position in the first place, but that's something beside the point. Dumbledore sometimes gets plain silly. It's possible that this rift is there because of the different perspectives: teenagers vs sometimes immature, though grown up hobbits. Gandalf has a much more serious personality, but with less hidden twists and turns (just ask Rita Skeeter). Quote:
You could argue that this makes Dumbledore a much interesting character to analyse. I think that he's just different. Too different to say better or worse. Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 11-30-2011 at 05:26 PM. |
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11-30-2011, 07:46 PM | #157 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Which goes back to what I said above. Gandalf could see the larger picture all the more easily because he was basically above it. Middle-earth was not his home, nor was he of the same stature as those he was to advise and move to action against Sauron. Dumbledore had nothing to rely upon but his own knowledge and sense of rightness.
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11-30-2011, 09:01 PM | #158 | |||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And on the yet another hand, one could say that Gandalf is a pretty boring character compared to the multi-sided Dumbledore. Not my own opinion either, but it could be. And on the hand that I didn't mention yet, one could argue that Dumbledore is not a "proper" mentor. And the only question left is how many octopi is it needed to give enough hands. Quote:
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I think I'm just agruing for the sake or arguing here, because really I agree with you.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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12-01-2011, 07:13 PM | #159 | |
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In terms of lying/not telling the whole truth, we might say Dumbledore is modelled more on Star Wars' Obi-wan Kenobi than on Gandalf - although I'd say Obi-wan himself (at least in the first trilogy, disregarding the prequels) was modelled on Gandalf to some degree. It's interesting that all three characters sacrificed themselves at some point of the story; and I think it's safe to say that in all three of them the sacrifice was based on the knowledge that death is not the end, there's something else involved (the Force/King's Cross*/Eru's providence). *Speaking of which, does anybody else think that Rowling's choice of that chapter title might have to do with something else than Harry associating the intermediate afterlife with the station of that name? Especially as Harry has just sacrificed himself for his friends and, as we learn in the following chapter, thus earned them the same protection against Voldemort his mother gave him, in other words redeemed them from evil?
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12-01-2011, 07:36 PM | #160 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Yes. That.
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Although the analogy you talked about doesn't leave much question about it, I really don't want to look at HP as another Christian creation. It's messy enough already just as fiction.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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