Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Findegil]

Further comments:

BL-EX-06: I do not much like to lose these lines. What about:

and there they lived, and the sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones -
now all these horrors like a cloud
BL-EX-06 {faded from}[laid on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights {no more}[of decay]
he heard, those waters {grey and }frore[ and gray]
that bittersweet he drank and filled
his mind with madness {- all was stilled}[yet unstilled].

Line 1833: What a bot this:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as BL-RG-08.5 {the Gnomes}[Noldor] alone
were gathered to their fading {homes}home,
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

Okay, I added the information that it were only Noldor who gahtered in Tirion, but that info is at least correct.

BL-RG-09 and [b]BL-RG-11.5[7b]: Good suggestions.

Line 1880: I think you have one feet to much in line 1883. What about:

The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell.
{they}They fought and laboured in the North{.},
when Fingon {daring alone}on his owne went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;

BL-RG-16 and BL-EX-09: Agreed.

BL-EX-10:I agree to your two suggestions, but I think we have not enough counted sylables in these lines. What about:

BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by{ the} sight that is given me{ in} this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; for all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall to liberty come indeed
but never to your hands shall it fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour youall,
and{ deliver} to other {keeping}much more fitfull care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

That is as fare as time allows for today.
Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

BL-SL-05:

First, whence comes ‘Thirty are slain by twelve you claim’? Is this an editorial addition?

Yes, that is what BL-SL-05 really was about. My idea behind the move of these line was to eliminate the spezial mission of Boldog but hold him as a Orc leader, recently killed. But in the end the second line that is needed for metrical reasons does change the fights from that of Boldog to that of Beren and Felagund which are not around Doriath. This change is bad and therefore I am happy you catched that edit.

Still Boldog is to be kept, and why not his death at fights around Doriath? That such fights were commen is clear from the Narn were we hear from Beleg and Túrin fighting in Dimbar.
In your editing the 'Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?' comes very abrupt. Also why not hold the mention of Lúthien and only skip Morogth interest in her? Sauron is another matter, his interrest could even be a trick just to test his opponents. Therefore I suggest:

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
BL-SL-05 {Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?

BL-RG-23; Lines 2507 and 2508; BL-RG-30; BL-RG-35 and BL-RG-38: Done.

BL-RG-40: I like your suggestion, but I for me the last line does now miss one syllable: 'Sauron's bats. What hast thou brought,' is only 7 syllables, or does I miss something?
In addition I would move BL-EX-11 from line 4227 to this passage if we mention her name here.


BL-SL-07: I don't agree to this. We skipt the disire of Morogth to posses Lúthien, but why should he not hear of the wanderings of Lúthien and ponder them and Thingols prupose?

BL-SL-08:
'kraft' for 'craft': Ups, thats my german coming through. Corrected.
{magic}[power]: I think that the change is needed. In Tolkien later writing magic has ever an evil conotation, which is unwanted here. Look at Galadriel reaktion to Sam speaking about 'elven-magic'.
'hallowing from' to 'hollwed by': Done.

BL-EX-17.3: Corrected.

In the third approach I have come through all your comments. I hope my one reactions might be helpfull.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Replies up to BL-EX-10 for now:

BL-EX-03: Yes, I think I must have parsed the editing wrong when I wrote that it added a non-rhyming line.

The problem with your suggestion, which would have us use the 'fare' here as a verb rather than a noun, is that we'd have to render it in the past tense ('fared') and thus lose the rhyme. I suppose one could resort to a metrical 'did' to preserve the rhyme:

BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on a] journey{'s lonely}did he fare,
BL-EX-05 {the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,

But of course it's best to avoid metrical 'did' whenever we can. Therefore I'm still tempted to just delete these two lines.

BL-RG-00.5: I don't think the comma is needed there, but it's a small point, and if you prefer it we can keep it.

BL-EX-06: I'd still rather delete these lines, to be honest. Part of it is just that 'like a cloud' seems to me to be a very apt turn of phrase for describing the horrors fading from his mind, but not so much for the horrors being on his mind currently. Beyond that, I don't think it's so easy to eliminate the retrospective character of lines 608-611. Your suggestion to change 'all was stilled' to 'yet unstilled' works fine, but I don't think your lines 608 and 609 work.

BL-RG-08.5: Using 'Noldor' rather disrupts the metre of line 1834, and I'm afraid the rhyme of 'alone' with 'home' doesn't quite work for me. But I agree it would be nice to keep these lines. I'll think about it and see if I can come up with anything.

BL-RG-11.7: You're right that my proposed line 1883 has an extra foot. I think we can edit this more minimally, though:

The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell;
{they}They fought and laboured in the North.
Fingon daring alone went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;

BL-EX-10: Remember, there is no strict requirement for eight syllables per line. Rather, it's four feet per line; each foot prototypically has two syllables, but an unstressed syllable can be left out or added as long as it doesn't significantly disrupt the rhythm of the four stresses. I suggest this:

BL-EX-10 <GA But Finrod spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by {the}sight that is given me in this hour, [2160]
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin their jewels regain {the Silmarils ever unto world's end}
before the End; all in vain[/u]
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed 'neath the triple peak, [2165]
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
Fëanor's sons, and{ deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

[Findegil]

BL-EX-03: Agreed. We delet the two lines.

BL-EX-06: To better the image of the cloud we could replace the 'a cloud' by 'dark cloud'. But for to the rest of your doubts I have no answer right now. If I can't find anything better we will delet the passage.

BL-RG-11.7: Agreed, we take:

The wars and wandering BL-RG-11.7{of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not. Far from their homes}has not the space to tell;
they fought and laboured in the North.
Fingon daring alone went forth
and sought for {Maidros}[Maedron] where he hung;

BL-EX-10: We are coming nearer to agreement. I see your point of feet versus syllables. But for me it is very dificult to have less syllables and not feel that this interupts the rythem. More are easier to accept. What about:

BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; for all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall it fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
the sons of Fëanor;{, and deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}it will bear.'>

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BL-EX-06: I'll see if I can come up with anything more suitable here as well.

BL-EX-10: At least we agree that a regular line of eight syllables is something to strive for when we can. Let me take this line by line.

<GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:

This line is already long, so I think it would be better to use 'Finrod' than 'Felagund' and save a syllable. With that substitution, we then have a nine-syllable line that is regular except for an extra unaccented syllable in the third foot.

'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,

Although we have so far agreed on this line, it is not terribly good. The first foot is missing the initial weak stress (which is common and not problematic), but we sneak in two extra syllables in the final foot. Indeed, this line could as easily be parsed as having five feet.

It occurs to me that we could probably do better by making the first two lines:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:

And then begin the quote on the next line. This gives both lines the regular, eight syllable pattern: x/ x/ x/ x/ (where x is an unaccented and / an accented syllable).

by the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,

I agree that the unedited full line 'by the sight that is given me in this hour' is too long - not because it adds any extra feet but because it has an extra unstressed syllable in each of the first three feet: xx/ xx/ xx/ x/ (if you parse 'hour' as one syllable). Removing 'that is' makes the second foot too short while leaving the first and third too long: xx/ / xx/ x/. But as I consider this more, it strikes me that it parses more naturally as xx/ /x x/ x/. That is, that the second foot has been made a trochee instead of an iamb, a variation well within the idiom. So I think we should take your line here.

{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power

This line is regular and unproblematic.

{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain

Another good line (the first foot lacks a weak stress, but that is perfectly fine).

before the End; for all in vain

My earlier suggestion, without the 'for', left a third foot without a weak stress, which is not quite as acceptable as a first foot without a weak stress but still not terrible. Your suggestion is fine, though, and certainly improves the rhythm. But I think more natural might be:

before the End; yea, all in vain

you swore. And this that we now seek

Nice and regular.

shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,

I think this line is fine, even though it has an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: x/ x/ xx/ x/.

but never to your hands shall it fall.

Here I strongly prefer not to add the 'it'; the line 'but never to your hands shall fall' is perfectly regular, with eight syllables.

Nay, your oath shall devour you all,

Even though this line has exactly eight syllables, it is far from regular: / x/ xx/ x/, if you pronounce 'devour' as two syllables. To my ear, 'devour' can pass as either two or three syllables, and my line, which omitted the 'you', was written with the three-syllable pronunciation in mind. But as I think about it, I suspect Tolkien would have parsed it with two syllables - in which case, your line is probably better.

the sons of Fëanor;{, and deliver} to other {keeping} care

This line, depending on how you say it, either sneaks an extra two syllables into the second foot, x/ x/xx x/ x/, or ends up with an extra foot, x/ x/ x/ x/ x/, neither of which is good. My proposal was:

Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care

This reverses the stresses of the first foot and puts an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: /x x/ xx/ x/. I think on the whole I prefer this.

Lúthien’s{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}it will bear.'

I would naturally read this as /xx /x /x /, though I suppose one could more charitably parse it as /x x/ x/ x/. My line was 'Luthien's great bride-price bear', which is / x/ x/ x/. I think better than either of those choices would be:

shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'

Which is a regular eight syllable line.

So my proposal now is:

<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:
'By the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

That looks much improved to me.

[Findegil]

BL-EX-10: Yes, that is much improved. We will take it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Sorry for the long delay.

I have been thinking a lot about Boldog and the two passages BL-SL-05 and BL-SL-07. I agree in principle on two points: first, that even though the motif of Morgoth's desire to capture Luthien was removed, there is no need to remove the skirmish with Boldog, and second, that it is still possible for Morgoth to hear of Luthien's wanderings and ponder Thingol's purpose.

So I think you're right about BL-SL-07 and I was being over-zealous in my suggestion. But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien?

I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution.

One other thing that's been knocking around in my head a bit is whether the note on Boldog from 'Myths Transformed' might have any implications for his role here. In MT, Tolkien first gives 'Boldog' as an example of an Orc whoe lived far longer than the lifespan of Men, but then speculates that 'Boldog' might in fact be a title or the name of an order of Maiar inferior to Balrogs. At first I thought that the first possibility (that Boldog was an Orc-captain who reappears many times over the centuries of the First Age) would preclude his being slain in the fight. But of course, it's possible that this is the last of those appearances. So in the end, I think the note doesn't oblige us to make any changes here.

BL-RG-40: Yes, my line is only seven syllables; the first foot is missing a weak syllable. I have tried to come up with a better line, but I can't. Note that something like this:

[Sauron's heralds]. What hast thou brought?

. . . is not, I think, any better, since the first two feet have the weak and strong stresses reversed. But I could live with either.

BL-SL-08: I'm still not quite convinced that 'magic' is unsuitable here, but I suppose we can err on the side of caution and use 'power'.