Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It was beyond their strength to keep it from driving them out of their homes in the first place.

Elves, particularly the powerful elves, had greater innate spiritual strength.

Not to say it couldn't have been done but it wasn't very likely.

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

Apparently. But do remember that in the 1st Age the puissance (spiritual and otherwise) of all the Children of Iluvatar was not yet splintered as it became by the 3rd Age.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Apparently. But do remember that in the 1st Age the puissance (spiritual and otherwise) of all the Children of Iluvatar was not yet splintered as it became by the 3rd Age.

I think that spiritual puissance is needed more that physical when confronting a Balrog. But this is a bit off topic, so I won't elaborate.

Also, it was one desparate Noldo with nothing to lose but everything on stake, and a thousand confused scared Dwarves.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that spiritual puissance is needed more that physical when confronting a Balrog. But this is a bit off topic, so I won't elaborate.

Also, it was one desparate Noldo with nothing to lose but everything on stake, and a thousand confused scared Dwarves.

Just think, if the Orcs had had the presence of mind, they could have rigged a Balrog costume, dressed one of the larger ones up in it, and taken Erebor from Dáin.

In support of the "Erebor or nothing" theory, there's yet more UT quotes from Gandalf:

'I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that.'

'Your own ideas are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield: but your kingdom is gone.'

I take those to mean that Thorin simply didn't have the numbers for a flat-out assault on Smaug. Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

x/d with Puddleglum.- I didn't really mean to go into here the ease of which the Dwarves were kicked out of Moria; I was mainly being facetious.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Just think, if the Orcs had had the presence of mind, they could have rigged a Balrog costume, dressed one of the larger ones up in it, and taken Erebor from Dáin.

Orcs having a presense of mind? What new insanity is that?!

No, really. A Balrog has a presense that no orc - with or without a mind - can duplicate: its willpower. My theory is that most "Balrog duels" (or any Ainu battles, for that matter) involve a contest of wills as much as physical prowess.

I think that a jig-saw puzzle is another way to visualise the Balrog/Elf/Dwarf triangle. If the pieces match, you have an "equal chance battle". If they don't, then... Well, let's put it this way. You need to have the right protection for an enemy's weapon. A shield will not hide you from poisonous gasses, and a gas mask won't protect from swords (to give a crude example). Saying this, the elves have a matching defense against at least one of the Balrog's weapons: their own spiritual/will power. That way, the victory is left to the better swordsman. Dwarves have a willpower of their own, but on a different level and in a different direction, if you get my meaning. The pieces don't match.

I take those to mean that Thorin simply didn't have the numbers for a flat-out assault on Smaug. Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

Indeed, maybe for the Dwarves wealth was an essential factor for a legitimate "kingdom". I recall Thrór, when giving the last of the Seven to Thráin, saying

'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'

ROTK Appendix A

[Kuruharan]

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said.

Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Maybe they liked Dain better.

I also have the impression that many of the Longbeards were still in places in the Grey Mountains and other spots. Note what Bard and the Elvenking feared in the lead up to the Battle of Five Armies. They were afraid that greater and greater numbers of dwarves would show up. The only places close enough for this to matter to the military situation on the ground at that moment were the Grey Mountains (and possibly in the Mountains of Rhun). Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

Not as such. I think it's more a matter of match-ups. The greatest of the Eldar had the particular skill/talent/whatever to match up with a Balrog's particular strengths and weaknesses (whatever they may be), the Dwarves apparently didn't (at least in the setting of the Mines). That doesn't mean that an Elf hero would match-up so well against the strengths/weaknesses of an army of Dwarves.

It may be as simple as the Elves having a defense (lacked by Dwarves) against the Balrog's primary attack methods. Or, to use a slightly wacky illustration,

• Sissors (Dwarves) Cuts Paper (Elves)
• Paper (Elves) Wraps Rock (Balrog)
• Rock (Balrog) Smashes Sissors (Dwarves)

That is, in fighting, A Beats B and B beats C does *not* necessarily mean A beats C.

Of course, don't read too much into this illustration. In reality, Elves (esp Noldor) hold their own pretty well against Dwarves also.