WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Mithalwen]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

[satansaloser2005]

Ah. My apologies, sir Nog. As long as you're not using that argument to keep Kit (or anyone else) around just because she tickles your ears (and using it indefinitely), I don't have a problem with it. Indeed, I agree with you, but we must remember that baddies can be golden-tongued and that we need to keep an eye on them as much as on the submarines.

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?


I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates.

[Nogrod]

Now this is an interesting developement.

I have been more or less uneasy with the way most people say how G55 makes so much sense. I've had a feeling she makes a lot of sense but that I also thought she was making comments that were against a well-informed goodie she seemed to be. I thought of letting it go (not going back to check the details and try to see if there was a case there) as it's her first game - and I'm not actually wishing to lynch her on D1 whatever the case - unless it can be shown believably that she is actually a wolf. I mean there is something in the traditions we should honour.

But these latest do give oneself some food for thought.

Lottie comes out in the open totally against the general outspoken mood saying she actually suspects G55.

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates.

We made this a useful D1 after all. Hurray!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

And you've clearly not yet seen the post in which I agree with him about how creepy it is. Do pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you cry wolf, okay, dear?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Bom

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

I think, especially due to that last sentence, that this post was mostly a joke by Bom. What bothers me about it is that it also looked like he was using this joke-post to prep for an easy vote on Sally today.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

1) Why would you bring attention to this, if true?
2) Survival only to have to drop out/be modkilled later? Try again.
3) Sally is many things, but foolish isn't one of them. Hmm.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

And so I declared shenanigans on this idea earlier. If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night.

What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won. And the second part of this quote seems rather redundant, unless you're saying the wolves won't try to get her lynched... in which case, why would you say that when you're the one saying she's suspicious?

I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive. And this -

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night."

- may be pulling a Lottie, but struck me as rather over-the-top.

I'm unsure what to think of Sally at this point. This -

Originally Posted by Sally

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.


Ain't life grand?



And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)

Possibly evil (by basis of record):
Nilp
Mith
Nerwen
Kit
Lottie

Possibly evil (by basis of being insane):
Everyone

- has elements of both ordo-Sally and wolf-Sally in it; she's flippant and sarcastic in her defense, but she's also quick to revenge-accuse Kitanna.

Originally Posted by Gala

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

One post does not a pushing attempt make, I don't think. I would like to see Bom comment on his post, though.

Originally Posted by Gala

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.

I do agree with this, though. Kit brings up the Sally-vote in a showcase-like manner, then suspects Bom for starting it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gala

But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

This could be a bit too much assumption on your part, though, Gala. It's really hard to predict what wolves will do in any given situation - it truly depends on the wolf. I'm not convinced that Kit and Bom are both wolves together, either.

Greenie, you've called Nerwen "careful" and "neutral" twice now. Do you suspect her, or not?

Originally Posted by Gala

Kit wouldn't set so many arguments against him (with which personally I agree) if he was her packmate. It's too much of a risk.

She absolutely would, especially on Day 1 when it's unlikely he'll be voted for being "new-ish". Wolf-on-wolfing is an extremely common tactic among wolves.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.

Bom has only made one action to speak of. This seems like it's jumping the gun a bit.

Originally Posted by Mith

I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.

I basically agree with everything said here.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Overruled, Mith. There were pigeons and, what's more, the promise of pigeons yet to appear.

I think you're a pigeon! I do, however, agree with you about the jump on Bom.

Originally Posted by Legate

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. (Although, in my opinion, everybody should read the rules carefully to be able to operate properly in his or her own role - even ordos, so that they can judge well what's going on and what are the options... but for WWs and Gifteds it is necessary, because e.g. you cannot play a Ranger without knowing how this role works, and a Wolf should know that as well, so that they know how they should plan their Night-kills in regards to there being other roles which can hinder them and so on...)

Can we just... not go down this road? 'Kay, thanks. (See - Lottie.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On another quick note. As I just skimmed through what had happened the last I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him.

This, also, I agree with.

Re Lommy at #79 - I don't think I've ever seen Lommy so decisive! Especially on Day 1! Something to consider...

Originally Posted by Sally[/b

The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.

Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.

Hee hee.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

Really, oh pigeon? Suspecting Sally and then suspecting Bom for suspecting Sally seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Originally Posted by Sally

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?

I'm doing a composite post. Shush.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

Funny - this is about the first thing I find suspicious about Sally in the way she said something.

I actually tend to agree with you. I do find it odd that Sally never mentions suspecting Gala until after first Lottie, then Eomer mention it, then uses their reasoning to say "oh, by the way, I suspect her too!" Hmm.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won.

Flipping this. I have an Excel chart to prove it. >.<

Originally Posted by Shasta, to me

Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

But she's suspecting Bom for suspecting me, then suspecting me herself. I really should have been clearer about that, shouldn't I? Oh well. I just mean that suspecting the person who suspects the person you're suspecting doesn't make any sense. Just like that last sentence.



x'd with Shasta

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive.

I do agree with this, though. Kit brings up the Sally-vote in a showcase-like manner, then suspects Bom for starting it in the first place.

Really, oh pigeon? Suspecting Sally and then suspecting Bom for suspecting Sally seems a bit hypocritical to me.

This is all from one of Shasta's posts, and a couple of other people have suggested the same: that Kitanna looks weird and possibly hypocritical for suspecting Bom for his infamous Sally-comment, and then suspecting Sally herself.

But Kitanna had a case against Sally; she suspected Sally for different reasons than Bom had (if he actually suspected her at all - which I doubt). I don't see how that's hypocritical. I'm not defending Kitanna per se, but this is not a successful argument against her.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

Interesting observation, really. A good one, but I am really not putting that much into the G55 situation. G55 really seems rather sensible to me this far.

Although of course, being thrown into your first game as a Wolf might force you to sharpen your skills to the most (I could talk - I had such an experience in my first game), so that might be what stands behind her surprisingly good reasoning this far... but then maybe it is also just stalking WW threads for too long (as I believe she had been doing)...

EDIT: x-ed since my last. Ah, people seem to be on dope, good. Posts falling from the very sky...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

I didn't say otherwise. But she has provided some proper analysis not just lists saying I can't decide about x... and she seems to have had an effect on you. If you were a horse there would be a stewards enquiry after that change of form. Just sayin.... Two hours left so time to read through in the light of the relative flood of posts....and votes.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

I remember that oh so well. 'twas my first game and no one gave me this so-called "newbie pass". Rather I was mercilessly killed on Day 2...if I ever see Morm on the street I'll shake my fist at him and scream "it was all your fault". Because of this I never give newbies a free ride because I'm a cranky and bitter young woman. :P

But I digress. I feel like I missed a lot yesterday after I voted. Sooo I'm going to have to reread the thread and go from there. For now I maintain my Sally is guilty stance. I noticed some buzz around Galadriel. I'll be looking at her and those who brought her up. Let's see where this takes me.

[Galadriel55]

What luck, Shasta!

However, on the bright side, one wolf down!!! I'm so not sorry now that my posts "hit her over the head like baby fish"!

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Anyway, Galadriel's clinging onto me makes me a bit suspicious of her, as I've previously stated, and then her vote for Lommie....what? It strikes me as quite a random and possibly evil thing to do, especially since it was a throwaway vote for someone who had barely been around (though I'll have to take a closer look before I make any more specific statements about it).

When I voted I crossed with 2 other Lottie-votes and didn't edit to say so since time was precious and could not be wasted on such petty matters (Just like Sally's phone, my computer wanted to make my life difficult, and took about a minute to load the post-your-reply-page! >.<). When I voted it did not seem like a throwaway vote at all.

Why Lommy?

Originally Posted by Me in #157

Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it.

That was a very brief explanation. More stuff to add:

An hour before DL she still didn't have any solid opinions on anyone, which is quite strange, because there has been enough going on yesterDay. She said that "none of the arguments really convince" her in #128. She was very quick to jump on Shasta's reasoning - right he was to suspect Lottie as we know toDay, but how would I have known yesterDay? - in #140. Moreover, she was around for some time - less than I have, but still - and didn't post anything except for some shaky impressions. Unnaturally quiet as well, considering the heaps of information.

All that combined made me vote for her yesterDay.

I'm still thinking about this. She voted for Lottie (who we now know is a wolf), but apologises for it. Of course, that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!

ETA: I'll be back in some time after my brain digests everything.

[Nerwen]

No! My pearl!

Now, why Shasta, anyway?

On the face of it, this may seem a silly question: he did the most to get Wolflote lynched, and by that had made himself more-or-less unlynchable– along with possibly looking a bit Seer-ish.

However, looking at yesterDay's chaos of accusations, counter-accusations and passionate defences, it's interesting that apparently nobody looked more like the Seer to the wolves. Shasta's case on Lottie was built on in-game evidence– whereas, a good many players seemed ready to defend/suspect others at the drop of a hat.

EDIT:X'd since G55 at #186.

[Kitanna]

I started with Galadriel simply because I know she garnered some attention, including some from Lottie.

1) First WW post ever
2) Comment to Nilp
3) Question to me about my joke post
4) Response to Sally
5) Directed at Nilp

Do you want me to vote you for jumping onto conclusions? There hardly have been any posts! (and come on, Lottie gave you a compliment, and you call her a wolf?! That's not nice!)

This doesn't have to mean anything outside of a joke, but it tickled me.
6)

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

...

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.

...

The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

I find her coming to interesting conclusions. Certainly Bom could easily have been steering conversation to Sally, but that's not a bandwagon, nor did I accuse him of bandwagoning. She also says I was trying to start one on Sally while criticizing Bom. But what is more interesting is that she thinks we are cohorts debating openly during the Day. I can be stupid and foolish, but even I think that's a silly idea for wolves. It seems a strange conclusion to state, especially on Day 1. But that doesn't seem so strange of Galadriel, but her defense of Sally is odd. However, at this point in her posts she doesn't look too suspicious.
7) Nothing really, just asking people not to put off to the last hour. Responsible, but not entirely helpful.
8) Nothing helpful
9) Asks about Legate and Eomer, nothing helpful
10) This is interesting. Greenie made comments on Galadriel's suspicions and then turned out to "I'm not accusing them. I just want to keep on eye on them."

If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to

Looks to me like you believed Bom and I were wolves plotting against Sally. This preoccupation with Sally. I find it strange she changes her opinion after being confronted about them.
11) Nothing helpful
12) Says Sally seems like a cobbler, but not a wolf. Obviously there is no cobbler and I regret ever making the statement because it is a moot point.
13) Responds to Eomer and his vote for her. At one point before this point Sally says her defense of her is "scary", I wouldn't go that far. I can't see any reasoning from her why she's you're innocent and it's certainly a strange stance. At the point she defended you against Bom's mercy killing and my suspicions you hadn't said much. Scary? Not really. Odd? Yes.

Kit makes more sense to me now - after a couple more posts - but at that time she didn't.

I might be wrong (I'm only reading Galadriel's and Galadriel mentioned posts) but at this point some had stated they didn't want me dead on Day1. That means not many votes, if any, coming my way. She suspected me pretty heavily it looked like in her sixth post. Then after Greenie commented she started to change her tune. Now she's almost completely flipped on her stance toward me, while maintaining her suspicions of Bom.

Yes, seeing as I don't want you - an innocent in my books so far - be lynched.

This is actually more scary than anything she had said about Sally beforehand. I don't think there was a time when Sally was really in danger, especially right here. Most, if not wholly supportive of her, at least didn't see Sally as wolfish (myself excluded (my hat, dear Sally! )) so why worry she's going to get lynched?
14)

Bom Tombadillo - spread suspicion and then disappeared. I wish he would post a bit more, and at least react somehow.
Nogrod - I need to reread his posts, as I'm having a hard time understanding some of his arguments. So far so good for the vibes.
Shasta - makes some good points (even though I don't agree with everything he says)
Kitanna - suspects Bom for suspecting Saly, but suspects Sally herself. First is inclined to vote for Bom, but changes her mind and votes Sally. Interesting (I'm not sure if it's in a good or a bad way...)
Sally - looks innocentish, but you've probably heard enough of that from me.
Eomer - no impression. Popped in to make a couple comments and to vote me.
Nerwen - as has been said before, guarded and careful. Too quiet. No impression.
Loslote - didn't say too many things either. No impression. A bit weird that she has nothing to say.
Greenie - doesn't think of Bom as very suspicious, yet vote for him. Also interesting.
Lommy - also not too many posts. Didn't comment a lot.
Nilp - where are you?
Legate - suspects Sally because I called her an innocent. Otherwise, looks good.
Mith avoided all the me-bom-kit-sally tangle. Didn't take sides. Didn't commit herself to anything. Made some fair points, but stayed aside.

I haven't decided what to make of this. It looks like her suspicions of Bom were dropped because he appears to be one of the only ones she doesn't offer up as innocentish or guilty.
15) Vote count
16)

I could vote for Greenie, Eomer, Lommy, and possibly Nilp, but there has been limited participation from all of them...
Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it. She will probably be my candidate.

I need to reread Lommy's posts before completely committing to an idea, but before she said she didn't find Eomer or Nilp. She makes somewhat of a case against Lommy in this post and had a little bit of one for Greenie previously. But what about the other two?
17) Votes Lommy
18) Vote count
19) Had forgotten to bold post, edited vote post
20) Nothing helpful
Day 2:
21)

An hour before DL she still didn't have any solid opinions on anyone, which is quite strange, because there has been enough going on yesterDay. She said that "none of the arguments really convince" her in #128. She was very quick to jump on Shasta's reasoning - right he was to suspect Lottie as we know toDay, but how would I have known yesterDay? - in #140. Moreover, she was around for some time - less than I have, but still - and didn't post anything except for some shaky impressions. Unnaturally quiet as well, considering the heaps of information.

Reasons for voting Lommy

that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!

And now she's flip-flopped on Lommy.

What I find stranger than her belief in Sally's innocence is her flip-flopping. She makes one case and then once it is commented on by another she goes back on her suspicions. That strikes me has more sinister than thinking Sally is innocent, she wasn't the only one. She just seemed to be the only one who really made a headline of it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(Time are in UT. Known innocents italicised, known baddies underlined, person/s in the lead bolded.)

1857 Greenie - Bom (Bom - 1)
2129 Kit - Sally (Bom - 1, Sally - 1)
2141 Eomer - G55 (Bom - 1, Sally - 1, G55 - 1)
2314 Shasta - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 1, G55 - 1, Lottie - 1)
2339 Mith - Sally (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 1)
2352 Leg - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 2)
2353 Lommy - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3)
2354 G55 - Lommy (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3, Lommy - 1)
2356 Nog - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 4, Lommy - 1)
2358 Nilp - Nilp (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 4, Lommy - 1, Nilp - 1)
0001 Sally - G55 (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3, Lommy - 1, Nilp - 1) [did not count]

The following people look good due to their votes (in order of perceived innocence):

1. Shasta (The first stone. Um, yes, obviously, he's innocent. Might have been suspected as the Seer, resulting in his death.)
   
   
2. Lommy (The avalanche, part 2. Her suspicion of Lottie was somewhat less substantiated than those below. We have this, then this after Shasta's Lottie-lysis. (Lysis, heh.) However, the timing of her vote puts her higher on the list; it would be funny if the she and Leg and Lottie were the wolfpack, and this 'oops crossvote' incident unintentionally killed one of them. But that would have been highly unlikely. Therefore she's the villager I trust the most, for now.)
   
   
3. Leg (The avalanche, part 1. This is a fine piece of deduction, I must say--the baddies (who know more than any other villager) would fear saying too much, so they would post something that actually says nothing.)
   
   
4. Nog (The coup de grâce. He could have voted for Sally, putting her in a shared lead with Lottie; he even said that he had intended that here. But he homed in on Lottie due to her slip regarding Kitanna (q.v.). There could be an element of someone knowing a little too much; which at this time, would point more to a baddie than the Seer, but not at this time.)

Now, I've put my doubts regarding their innocence cos there's a caveat to this list; I have myself in three instances offered fellow baddies to the lynch mob to obtain that cloak of feigned innocence--as our dearly departed InzilaMod might remember. Also, there's that matter of Mac sending two of his packmates to the gallows, foiling a post-double-lynching mathematical victory I (as the seer) have struggled to prepare.

However, they shall be quite low on my suspect list, unless the Seer should contradict me, or should they say something quite damning.

My suspects next. After finishing episode four of Madoka Magica. (Priorities!)

[Galadriel55]

I recall a few people suspecting Lottie earlier in the thread, some even said they intend to vote her, but none really making one solid argumentive "summarizing" case against her until Shasta did. Now where did that stroke of inspiration come on him? He was debating a bit about everyone, but more about me, sally, Kit, and Bom. In 134 he considers voting [B]Sally/B], but wants more thought from her before a final decision. Then considers vote for Kit, but discards it because she'd be a throw-away.

Decides he'll analyze Lottie and does so in #138. Votes. More people follow.

The way I understood Shasta's post#134 is that Lottie wasn't his top priority, and that he'd rather vote for Kit, or possibly Sally. Interesting. But lucky that he voted Lottie.

Edit: xed with Kit and Nilp. Stupid computer freezing again.

[Kitanna]

Shasta, Lommy Legate, and Nog all voted Lottie. I want to look at vote times to begin with and I won't be taking too hard a look at Shasta, I think he might have been seen as the seer and that's why he died. He was the first to vote Lottie. As for the rest looking at vote times Lommy and Legate voted within a minute of each other, if this wasn't the case I'd say Lommy could be guilty. Nog voted later and I think it was clear Lottie was going to die at this point. I'm not sure what to think of the surviving three voters. Time to scrutinize

Lommy:
1) Nothing really helpful, states confusion, out of WW mode, will return with clearer thoughts
2) Thinks Bom looks suspicious. Nog makes sense, but seems uptight, this doesn't mean guilt, could be RL issues. Doesn't understand my logic, but wouldn't vote for me. More inclined toward Sally's innocence. Greenie seems innocent. Most of the others she states to having no opinion.
3)

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

Innocent viewpoint of Lottie. Something Galadriel pointed out as her reason for voting against her.
4) No arguments convince her.

So who I won't vote toDay:
Kitanna - too useful this far.
Nogrod - us agreeing made me think him innocent, and now that we don't agree so much anymore (his case on Sally etc) I still think he looks fairly good.
Sally - well I still think she is one of the players who tends to avoid declaring her innocence when evil.
Shasta - gives me innocent vibes.
Legate - hats off for clearing his head and using his time much better than me, and his way of argumenting seems pretty innocent this far.

What happened to Lottie? She thought her innocent...
5)

Mmh. Tempted to follow Shasta's lead. He definitely didn't make Lottie sound too good.

Did a wolfy Lommy think Shasta could be the seer?
6) Talks to Lottie about her reasons for giving/ not giving Galadriel a newbie pass. Says Lottie is being confusing.
7) Seems like she's having a change of heart about Lottie.
8) Votes Lottie
9) Doesn't know what to make of her crosspost with Legate.
10)

Legate - I was wondering how it will make the outcome of the day.

Did you think maybe voting for comrade Lottie wouldn't actually doom her? This is the most interesting and fiendish thing Lommy has said thus far.
Lommy certainly looks bad right about now. She says Lottie is innocent. She piggybacks on Shasta. She changes her mind again. She votes Lottie. And her statement to Legate in her tenth post just looks wrong.

Legate:
1) Doesn't necessarily accuse anyone. He does cast suspicion on Bom and me. But he doesn't get too in depth into accusing us either. Likewise he doesn't defend Sally, though he understands where she's coming from. He thinks Galadriel is reasonable and isn't too suspicious.
2) Lists his thoughts on everyone. He doesn't really pin down anyone, though it looks like Mith could be his front runner based on her "I agree with so-so and about blah-de-blah" attitude. He also comments on Mith's suspicions of people who are unclear on the rules.
3) Seems to come to an understanding of what Mith was saying about the rules. He doesn't exactly agree with her viewpoint, but he doesn't completely disagree that it is out of the range of possibilities. He thinks some of what I say about Sally could be applied elsewhere (rambling posts specifically), but says other arguments might be "more valid", he doesn't say what ones those are. Sees Nog as innocent so far.
4) Says Lottie could well be his vote. He also questions what Lommy said of myself and Sally. I think (I'm confused by his wording) that he doesn't think Lommy has evil intentions. Asks a question of Sally.
5) Sees Mith as more innocent. Questions Lottie's motives against Galadriel. He questions Sally and her innocent because of how she doesn't like Galadriel backing her. This is his only suspicion of Sally.
6) Didn't see too much usefulness here.
7) Starts to suspect Sally for her last few points. Analyzes the posts in question.
8) Shasta looks good, Sally doesn't.
9) Response to Sally.
10)

Red zone:
Sally
Loslote

Orange zone:
Bom Tom
Kitanna

Yellow zone:
G55
Eomer
Lommy

Green zone:
Nogrod
Shasta
Mith

Grey zone - not enough data:
Nerwen
Greenie
Nilp

Is staying pretty consistent in his suspicions.
11) Response to Nog.
12) Trying to decide between Sally or Lottie.
13) Votes Lottie
14) Asks Lommy is she is questioning her vote
So Legate doesn't look too bad to me. He speaks sense and stays consistent rather than jumping here and there, backing down from suspicions.

Suspects thus far:
Galadriel: A lot was said of her "backing" Sally, but that doesn't me. Rather she backs away from something when someone else contradicts or questions it. First she accuses Bom and I of tag teaming and trying to get a Sallywagon going. Then Greenie says something and all of a sudden she's "not accusing, just watching" us. She flip-flops and tries to be sly in her observations.

Lommy: She was all about believing Lottie was innocent, essentially with no reasoning. Then Shasta casts a shadow and suddenly there's Lommy ready to get Lottie out of the picture. This could well be a wolf move. My packmate is in trouble, I should vote for them now when it's still anyone's Day. If she dies I look innocent. What's more unsettling is her comment about how her cross post with Legate "will affect the outcome". That's is possibly the most sinister thing I've read so far.

Sally: Oh that's right. Most of my reasons have been outlined, but I find it unsettling that Sally has latched onto Galadriel's defense of her. It's possible (I haven't done a count) but she may well have brought up Galadriel's defense more than Galadriel actually said she thought she was innocent. That seems a bit like she's trying too hard to get us to look at Galadriel. Of course if Galadriel is a wolf I have to surrender my beliefs that Sally is a fanged menace. This goes the other way too. If Sally is evil than I'm hard pressed to believe Galadriel is.

My house is essentially a giant oven right now. It's becoming hard to focus which is why my analysis of Legate kept getting shorter. I'm probably going to be absent for a few hours. When I return I want to finish up looking at Nog (the final Lottie vote), look at Mith (something has seemed strange with her posts, but I don't know what), and of course look at Lottie herself.

[Galadriel55]

What happened to my post? Drat this stupid pile of metal that I'm typing at! I've written an essay and it swallowed it whole!!!

(I replied to Kit's analysis about me and added some of my own points)

Do I have to start typing again?... Ok, I'll try to retype it, but I'm going to sound very angry (you know the reason).

[Galadriel55]

I've spent an hour typing something imilar, except that it was much better and now I forgot half the points I wanted to make. All thanks to my ************** computer.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I find her coming to interesting conclusions. Certainly Bom could easily have been steering conversation to Sally, but that's not a bandwagon, nor did I accuse him of bandwagoning.

Can't really be a legitimate bandwgon on one of the first posts, can there? But it can become one if others join onto it. One post can't be called a bandwagon, but it can be starting one.

As you said yourself,

..simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish.

And a wolf kills by Day by means of getting others to vote for their victim, right?

She also says I was trying to start one on Sally while criticizing Bom.

Firstly, continue would be a better word here than start. Secondly, as has been said and mulled over many times before, suspecting Bom for going against Sally while going against her yourself is odd.

But what is more interesting is that she thinks we are cohorts debating openly during the Day.

Wolf-on-wolf, as I was reminded when in a latter post I said that if you are wolves probably not together.

But that doesn't seem so strange of Galadriel, but her defense of Sally is odd.

I have nothing against that sentence except that I can't understand it (my brain is screaming "bedtime!"). Can you please rephrase it?

I might be wrong (I'm only reading Galadriel's and Galadriel mentioned posts) but at this point some had stated they didn't want me dead on Day1. That means not many votes, if any, coming my way. She suspected me pretty heavily it looked like in her sixth post. Then after Greenie commented she started to change her tune. Now she's almost completely flipped on her stance toward me, while maintaining her suspicions of Bom.

While maintaining less serious suspicions on both of you. There weren't that many people to be suspicious about at that time (why would I put a person who hasn't posted yet on my suspicion list?), and out of those people you two were the most suspicious. Now you aren't. But that doesn't mean I flipped on either of you.

I have a question for you, Kit. Why did you find these posts suspicious only after many other people commented on them in the same way?

It looks like her suspicions of Bom were dropped because he appears to be one of the only ones she doesn't offer up as innocentish or guilty.

Not completely dropped, but rather lowered, since there are now more players who posted, and more people to suspect, etcetc you've heard it all above.

before she said she didn't find Eomer or Nilp. She makes somewhat of a case against Lommy in this post and had a little bit of one for Greenie previously. But what about the other two?

I haven't got a read on Eomer. I considered voting him (very briefly, not too seriously, and only out of spite) because he voted me...

And now she's flip-flopped on Lommy.

It's a new Day, I have more information. Why can't I use it?

What I find stranger than her belief in Sally's innocence is her flip-flopping. She makes one case and then once it is commented on by another she goes back on her suspicions.

Look at yourself! First you had Bom at the top, but then you voted Sally, after some people chewed everything over and thought your behaviour hypocritical.


I'm sorry if that sounded irritable. Blame it on the good for nothing computer I'm typing on.

I'm so tired now all my notes and thoughts will have to wait until tomorrow (RL). *yawns*

[satansaloser2005]

I'm sorry to do this, but my lovely guest has just left and I'm exhausted, so I'm turning in(to what, you may ask? ) for the night. I'll be back with thoughts in the morning.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Lommy:
3)
Innocent viewpoint of Lottie.

------


What happened to Lottie? She thought her innocent...

Looks like Lommy hasn't responded to this, but:

Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Will probably be around later but there's a chance I'll have no internet access whatsoever, so I'll vote now.

++Galadriel55

Was suspicious of her yesterday, and she looks more suspicious with every post. Not certain she's guilty or anything but she is my top suspect.

Interested in seeing Kitanna's comeback on Lommy, which I'm pretty sure will have to be toned down as it seems to rest on a misinterpretation.

Sally still suspicious. Wondering about Nerwen, Mithalwen and Nilp.

Hopefully (probably) back later.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mith

No it was just the coffee was kicking in and having read through to make sure it made some kind of sense I realised that is what it boiled down to.I was trying ot make it clear having been queried on my mention that it is suspicious not to know the rules theory which seemed quite obvious to me.

I was thinking about the significance of the Ranger issue yesterday as I mentioned in one of the posts. I was up to the rather simple task of relating actual events to previously considered hypostheses on the game structure in my fragile state. What I wasn't up to but am going to try is to try and sort out the far more complex webs of interactions and analyses thereof .

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Still, you must admit it has often been the case that a wolf jumps on the bandwaggon.

Yes, I admit it. But the only one who "jumped on a bandwagon" yesterDay was Nogrod, Legate and I both thought we were posting the second vote and I don't call that bandwagoning. In my opinion that's not much against Nog yet.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Looks like Lommy hasn't responded to this, but:
Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.

I did reply it in my long post up there - and indeed I did not say Lottie is innocent at any point...

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.

I went back to read it. I saw the word innocence bolded above the post and that clicked in my mind as Nog and Lottie were innocent to her. No, she doesn't actually say she thinks Lottie is innocent, but she also doesn't really say she thinks she guilty either in that post.

PS: I'm glad to see Bom is back.

[Mithalwen]

Not sure I buy the forgot I was playing line since he actually posted.