Why Does Good Suck So Much?

[Galadriel55]

Morgoth wsn't created to be the "base drum" of the ainulindale that covers all other sounds. He chose to do so. In the beginning, he wasn't evil.

Yes, Sauron helped destroy Numenor. However, the Numenorians chose to listen to him and follow his instructions. Moreover, all Sauron did was speed up the decline. He wouldn't have been able to do so if there wasn't a good fertils soil to plant on.

Some of the major virtues in the legendarium are pity and forgiveness. Those who do not understand them...

Originally Posted by The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath

He thought that he forever estranged the Noldor from the Lords of the West, and that content in their blissful realm the Valar would heed no more his kingdom in the world without; for to him that is pitiless the deeds of pity are strange ad beyond reconing.

And look what happened to Morgoth!

We see many characters achieve certain wisdom through forgiveness/pity. Bilbo, Frodo, Faramir, Turin to some extent, etc. Eonwe forgave Sauron when he surrendered. Just like the other beings in Arda, he couldn't predict what this would cause.

[Nikkolas]

You cannot tell me that the Numenorians would have started sacrificing people to Morgoth had Sauron not come....

They also would not have attacked Valar. In fact, Ar-Pharazôn flat out refused to do so even as Sauron encouraged him. He did not dare it until he was at death's doorstep and thus had pretty much lost all reason in place of fear.

As for Melkor, he was born of Eru's mind. Eru Himself made Melkor to be willfull, fearful and proud. There's also the theological paradox present of whether free will can even exist if we are created by an omnipotent and omniscient being. Because even as we type these posts, this was foretold and destined to happen at the beginning of existence. Therefore free will cannot really exist.

But that really tangles up Tolkien's ideas with Christianity and that is a really heated debate I don't want to get into.

[Galadriel55]

Definitely a heated debate, which I would not like argue about in this thread. However, it can be boild down to this: If there is free will, there is choice. If there is no choice, what's the point of free will?

Numenorians might not have started sacrificing people in the name of Morgoth (since they didn't know who he is), but weren't they doing it already, without naming him and doing a special ceremony? Elendili were put to death for disagreeing, anyone who spoke Elvish was severely punished (I don't remember if it was a death penalty, though)... In other words, whatever Morgoth would want them to do, just without he ceremonies.

Maybe without Sauron Pharazon wouldn't have rebelled against the Valar. But his son, or grandson, or great-grandson (etc) would have. The reason Pharazon didn't go right away was because of elemental fear. How many generations would it take for the fear to decrease enough?

[Nikkolas]

I don't remember them sacrificing people before Sauron suggested it. Then again I could be mistaken.

Anyway, it's entirely possible (and probable) that Numenor would have gotten itself sunk eventually. But what-ifs are not important. It remains that Sauron did poison the people against the Valar. It is Sauron who pushed them to madness and death and evil.

He is only there because the Valar allowed him to be. The Valar's failing is a cause of the death of Numenor is all I'm saying.

I am enjoying this discussion though.

[Galadriel55]

I'm glad that your head is still intact from my babbling.

What I was talking about is not "official" sacrifices to someone specific (ie Morgoth), but rather murder that is ordered by the king that make Morgoth's dream (chaos etc) come true.

The Valar rarely interfere with the outside world. Not because they don't care. Because they leave a choice to the Eruhini. They sent the istari - you might think "big deal, 5 old wizards!" but it's more than that. It's a way to assist ME without completely controlling it.

Sauron came to Numenor because Pharazon took him there.

At the end of the 1st age, Sauron was left alive because of pity, as I said before. Later on, the Valar did not interfere in the world's affairs for a long time.


I'm trying to say something more complicated than my brains can hold. I'm confusing myself, and probably going in circles with my arguments. Gonna go hang my brain on a clothsline for a while to air out.

[Nikkolas]

I understand your points. ^^

I suppose you could look at them having "traitors" executing as the first step to sacrifices.

As for the rest, the Valar's actions are a bit erratic. Sometimes they don't want to interfere, and sometimes they do. If they had a single uniform policy of non-interference, I could respect that. But think of it from the perspective of a Numenorian.

"You helped the Elves and Men and everyone else! Why won't you help us?!"

i could not even begin to blame them for being bitter. The inaction of the Valar, and the completely monstrous act of sinking Numenor, make the controllers of the fates of Arda look quite malevolent or at least not benevolent.

As for Sauron, he at least had noble intentions. His design was to rule the world because only through dictatorship could order and peace be achieved. It's understandable that he would think this way given the chaos he's seen. Unfortunately for him he overestimated his own ability to right all the wrongs of the world.

[Galadriel55]

NOTE: the Valar didn't sink Numenor. Eru did.

The Valar (and Eru) didn't act until Pharazon completely decided that he wants to wage war against Valinor. There were warnings for him while he still was in Numenor. He didn't heed. He was given a last chance, and he almost took it - just before he stepped onto Aman - but pride was stronger. It's his pride that killed him.

I have to agree that the Valar are fairly inconsistent, with other issues as well. For example, they give Tuor immortality when they can't give it to Beren.

I guess that they think they are too uninvolved, so they stick their noses in, decide that they are messing around too much, go back into seclusion...