What do you wish Tolkien....

[Galin]

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

Their 'official', published arrival circa TA 1000 'coincides' with Sauron's return and his takeover of Amon Lanc. I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then? If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth? In the 2nd age Sauron's armies overran nearly everything except Lindon!

I wonder if JRRT had ever planned to revise any part of the Appendices in a future edition of LotR?


I would also like to ask JRRT whether Gandalf's Elvish name had changed after he became "The White". "Nimrandir" (white wanderer)? "Nimistar" (white wizard)? Did he go back to being good ol' Olorin in Valinor?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

(...) I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then?

We know the general date anyway (not that you don't): 'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600.

But as I say, we have evidence that JRRT mused about sending two wizards in the Second Age, but the other late citation might refer to all five Istari in the Third Age (at least just as well as it might refer to the Second Age, unless I'm missing something there).

If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth?

They sent Glorfindel

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

They sent Glorfindel

Sauron damn-near conquered every square mile of Middle-earth and they send over one elven warrior, who, head-to-head, is really no match for the strongest Maiar. If I was Gil-galad I'd be like "Gee thanks! No Vanya hosts to spare? C'mon!"

[Galin]

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

That's believable. The Valar knew that Numenor would rescue ME.

As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

[Galadriel55]

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

Because Glorfy is awesome!

But definitely a good question, tht deserves a better answer.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

While Tolkien does note that Glorfindel's return must have been for strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, I think his great fame would naturally be an inspiration. And as for wisdom, while not Olorin himself obviously, it was said Glorfindel became a friend and follower of Olorin in Valinor, and...

'for long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (...) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his sacrifice.' JRRT, Glorfindel II

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

I rather like Tolkien's first 'answer' to this question from Glorfindel I (even though he seems to have superseded it in Glorfindel II): Laurefindel came with Gandalf as a companion (and again, he was a friend and follower of Olorin).

Finrod had good enough reasons to stay in Aman; but more generally, the late essays raise issues that include: Glorfindel being a reluctant rebel in the first place, his sacrifice, the matter of reincarnation in Aman concerning the Exiles... and again generally speaking, we can see Tolkien working out Glorfindel's special circumstances.

Of course externally Tolkien had two Elves named Glorfindel in his legendarium (not necessarily a problem in itself), though only one was known to the general public in any case; and if they were to be considered the same being, then it was a given that Glorfindel of Gondolin had returned to Middle-earth at some point (unless JRRT was willing to change the circumstances of Glorfindel's death, which I doubt).

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

Tolkien wrote a later essay concerning the word ros for example (which, not unexpectedly, included details beyond specific linguistic concerns)... then he noted that most of it failed because of an already published detail however, the word andros being Sindarin. For another instance, JRRT wrote two variant late descriptions of Celebrimbor after he had published (second edition) that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean -- but did Tolkien remember this when he wrote these descriptions? and if he forgot but remembered later, did he necessarily need to go back and write 'this fails' on either text, since the public was unaware of them?

Christopher Tolkien thinks his father had forgotten about this detail and (in his opinion) JRRT surely would have felt bound to Celebrimbor the Feanorean.

I tend to agree, but this matter is difficult. To state the obvious: we know what already published text Tolkien was willing to change when he changed it for the Second Edition. What was he willing to change later? who knows? for example, why not simply change the appendices and note ros really was a Beorian word rather than Sindarin (as in his late essay)? But, it would appear that his 'most of this fails' should mean that he was not willing to alter this.

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.