A Measure of Success

[Folwren]

I brought up this subject with my sister, who was here at one time as Finduilas. Anyway, she said that ensuring shorter games would make it easier for players to commit. She said, "If a game was going to last two weeks, I could commit to posting once a day for two weeks. But if it's going to last two years, I can't commit to that." So, she thought shorter games would be a good idea.

[Nogrod]

I do warmly welcome this discussion taking place.

There are so many things to comment on... but let me make a few.


I think one of the main reasons to many games stalling (besides WW ) is that the ambitions of the mods of the games - and the possible "inner circle" of writers - have sky-rocketed.

My first RPG was Arry's Outracing the Flames on 2006. There was a simple mission for the players and the mod had planned a few obstacles on the road. Even if it went for longer that had been planned, it ended in 5 months and in an orderly fashion. The last one here I think?

Now as it was my first RPG ever, I might feel some warmth to the experience it would not deserve otherwise, but it was well-run game that stayed focused. And the thing was; it was kept simple.

I have written in a few RPG's after that (Treachery of Men & The Fellowship of the Fourth Age come to mind as experiences), but they were already quite complicated in what came into the plotlines and detail. So many players dropped off when time went by as it took so long and they required such involvement.

Now one could say that hey, that's why we have these different "levels" of RPG'ing. In Shire (Outracing the Flames) we have these fairly simple games and in Rohan the more requiring ones (ToM & FotFA). And it is a fair point.

But it seems we have not have those easy and straightforwards Shire-games in years - and the ambitions of the Rohan-games have gone maybe too far?

Don't read me wrong here, I love those multilayered and sophisticated games that have a lot of complexity myself (and I couldn't see myself writing in something so tightly mod-guided/dictated & simplified game as the "Outracing the Flames" was anymore).


So if we have both a) less new people joining, and b) nothing to offer them (the simpler "first stage" games), then no wonder the renaissance will not dawn on 'Downs roleplaying section. I've seen many newcomers joining those more ambitious games and dropping off... (to be honest a few "seniors" did drop off as well - mainly because of time constraints, which should be telling...)


Also I think it's important to remember that the Mead Halls should be basically very different from the more focused RPG's. And at least on paper (well, on screen) the idea of there being two different Mead Halls, one for the "beginners" and one for the more "advanced" is a good one as they can then have two different focuses.

When I joined the Green Dragon back in the days it was more or less just one party going on where the idea was to socialise with others, learn the basics of RPG'ing with other players - and then move on to the "real games". Like you pop in at an inn, meet some people and have a drink with them - and continue your journey, maybe with a new friend. I haven't followed the Golden Perch that much but from the little I have seen, it is different.

Also I think that it is a good idea in principle that the Eorling Mead Hall / Scarburg Mead Hall should be more plot oriented while still retaining the air of being a place you can just put your nose into and join the game anyday.

But as a co-mod of the current Scarburg Mead Hall I must say that the concept isn't working anymore that well it could, or it did. The open-endedness of the plotlines and timelines, added with the different RL situations of the players over long periods of time, individual levels of interest in particular plots being played etc. make a plot driven Mead Hall kind of a hybrid between the "just socialising" games and the real "plot driven" games. It could take on the best features of both (and at times it actually does it) but it can also take on the worst features of both.


But if there are considerably less new people joining in, it is clear there is no return to the ongoing parties of the old Green Dragon, after which those keeping it up naturally & understandaby turn into more plot- or friend-based writing which further scares outsiders away from posting.

At the same time there is the danger that the Rohanian Mead Hall will stagnate into a game played by the few "striders" already known to each other and where newcomers don't dare to come into as it looks to complicated and too much of an insider thing. (We actually had a burst of fresh blood there when the modship changed there two years ago and managed to recruit a host of new writers there - sadly only a few of them are left today.



So what am I suggesting after all this rambling?

I think we should do well to open some fairly basic games and try to lure the new 'Downers into them. I mean we do have them all the time - and I actually think we have gained a lot more active 'Downers the last half year than in a long time...

That would require a mod who was not trying to fullfill her or his ambitions there but being more like an experienced fellow encouraging the newcomers to delve into RPG'ing while keeping it simple and doable. And this is not pointing fingers at anyone. What I think is that we need someone to mod those "Shire-games" who would be not too enthusiastic about it being her/his game, but like a pedagogical person as a forum for the ones who play to learn their skills and get excited about it. (Okay, the teacher-me speaking here, I can see)


Also we should consider the role and meaning of the Mead Halls again. How to make the Golden Perch a place new people would crave to go into? How to make the Scarburg Mead Hall take the best features of both open and plot-driven games while avoiding the bad ones?


And in the end, we should also acknowledge that the world is not the same it was five or ten years ago - and thus also people and their interests are different. So not everything is the fault of you and me - the mods and active players of the RPG's. It's just the wolrd that changes - and we all with it.


EDIT: SOrry this became this long. I never seem to be able to be concise...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

a few of these principles, I have a game written up that would take two months/eight weeks. The plot is simple, and there are built in check points each week in terms of where the writing needs to aim. The construction is simple in terms of required characters, so it would be easy to write people out if necessary, but probably wouldn't be necessary.

And I have no problem cracking the whip to keep things moving along. As Nog says, the game wouldn't be an epic adventure, full of modly grandeur and personal fulfillment; it would be a basic example and/or pedagogical experiment.

Is this something there is interest in watching play out? With it we would see pretty easily and pretty quickly if making changes to game length and complexity requirements would draw a firmer commitment from more people.

After all, it's very well and good to discuss potential solutions, but without seeing if they work pragmatically, it's all just hot air...

[Nogrod]

A very good idea Fea.

And I would also like to see some "recruitment" taking place - like asking the new 'Downers to join and try it out - whilst having a few "seniors" around in the game to give an example (like either parties involved all the time or as "visiting characters" - which we used to have back in the days). Not too high or ambitious or self-serving, but like they were not too interested in their own characters doing the best game ever, but playing it thus the newbies could get the max out of it.

If we're going to try that, I could try to find time for it to participate in that mode of playing it for the others.

And really, when has there been a Shire game on offer the last time? Valier's game* starting like three years ago?


* That's actually a telling case. I remember Valier asking me if I would like to join the game, it was something like early fall, and I had to decline it as I had so many things going on that time both in RL and 'Downs. But as I was interested in the game we decided that I should then make a character that would come in at a later stage, quite like on the first new twist of the game planned. Well, the game has never reached the point my character could come in - even if it has been near it a few times during the years...

[Bêthberry]

Just wanted to pop in and say that, as I have lurked from time to time at the Scarburg Mead Hall, I've been impressed with the way that it is being modded.

I like how Noggie asks questions of the characters, basing action on the characters' behavioural traits, as well as offering other open-ended possibilities. My guess is this approach has been responsible for the on-going participation of many of the new Rohan gamers. I think I see a teacher's hand at play here--and I mean that in the most positive light and not at all a pedagogical pedantry.

It's been years since I read anything in The Shire and just as long since I've had much time to devote to RPGing, so that's about all I can add.

It's good to see some discussion here and that people still care about gaming on the Downs.

[Mithadan]

Agreed. It is good to see some needed discussion. Frankly, we need a bit more.

There are a few relatively active RPGs on the forums, and I'd like to see more players post and give their views, before beginning to try and focus our considerations. I note some obvious holes or omissions in people's posts, whether intentional or unknowing. Can anyone guess at what I am talking about?

[Firefoot]

I just wanted to pop in here and say that I've been following along with the discussion, though I don't have a whole lot to add myself...

I've been back at the Downs and posting in the Scarburg Meadhall after only being around very spottily for the last couple of years, and I'm remembering how much I used to love the RPG's here. I would love to get involved in a game, if we want to try and start up a new one or two.

As far as the plot-driven vs. character-driven argument goes, I have played in both sorts and really enjoyed both types (I think my favorite RPG that I've ever written in was Shadow of the West which was extremely character-driven, but that was also what could be called a much higher-complexity game for the purpose of this discussion). For the purpose of drumming up some new players and trying to bring the RPG fora back to life, though, I think some simpler, plot-driven games would be better - something fairly ready-made like what Fea was describing.

As far as the structure of the fora go, I think it would be good to keep two levels anyway... Rohan for somewhat more complicated games and the Shire for more basic games. I don't think it needs to be quite so regimented with who's allowed to play where, though; the distinction would more be for the type of game and the commitment level that each would require. The emphasis shouldn't be so much on "the good gamers go here and the noobs go there." Rohan (and especially Gondor!) always seemed so intimidating to me when I started RPG'ing and I don't think that's how it needs to be. Actually, the whole RPG thing was so intimidating to me when I first got interested that I actually read along with an entire game before joining one myself - there are an awful lot of rules, so it sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is.

Durelin mentioned the idea of getting rid of character bios. I don't like this idea at all. One of my favorite parts (I'm not even kidding) of RPG's is getting started and making up a new character to fit into the story. For me, writing the character bio really helps me get into character from the start, as well as giving me an idea of what other people's characters are going to be like and how mine might interact with them. If you will, it jump-starts the creative process.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that at least for now, things need to be tightened up a little on the game owners/moderators side in that a couple of shorter, well structured games might do a lot to drum up some interest, but also maybe loosened up a bit from the perspective of new players. I was daunted at first, but I don't think there's any need for that - it's really not that complicated, and new players shouldn't feel too intimidated to try.