A Measure of Success

[Mithadan]

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

For the record, Counselor, you have 3 Downers commenting here, not 2, although I suppose you could say one expressed disinterest.

[Mithadan]

Objection overruled. Proceed.

[Mnemosyne]

As someone who got here "too late" to be involved in much of anything, but who would really love to do some concrete RPs, I hope you don't mind my ducking in.

First of all, what Fea said. The RPs that never end have to go, because the longer an RPG lasts, the more likely people's RL circumstances are going to change and they're going to have to drop out of the game. This, in itself, isn't a problem per se--this happens in Werewolf all the time. It's a problem of critical mass. Even if not everyone can be playing at one time, enough people need to be to keep the plot moving forward. This is more complicated in an RP situation as well, because if you have three players who have the time and desire to post, but they're all playing minor characters who don't really interact with one another, it's going to be harder to keep the ball rolling.

One way around this situation (and it's not a very desirable one) is shared characters, or at least understudies. In March there was a month-long RP challenge thing for Back-to-Middle-Earth Month, and because I knew my commitment time would be spotty, I shared a character with another author. We emailed one another to see who would post next, depending on our time and commitments, and luckily my really busy/not feeling inspired times were all times when she had the time and energy to post for him--and vice versa. Because I have a number of characters who are much closer to me, that I wouldn't share, I understand if that feels weird, but we created the character together with the expectation that we would have slightly different ideas of what we wanted to do with him, and we ran with it. Certainly character quality goes down in this situation, but I would prefer "okay" posts to no posts at all.

In any case I think that the RP fora need to be leaner and meaner. Gondor has long been naught but a dusty mathom room, and that breaks my heart. I don't know whether that means we should consolidate all of our playing into one forum, though, or keep Rohan and the Shire separate. The elitist in me wants to keep the two separate, because I really do feel that the net writing quality in the two is different, but if we want to jump-start this thing we may need all the help we can get.

So, 1). Definitely have shorter games. That means not only having a deadline, but also having a cleaner plot. I'd love to see some two-week RPs (okay, we can make them longer) that cover the plot equivalent of one chapter in LotR. If the players can dedicate another two weeks to the plot, move another chapter along; if not, put it on hold. There's nothing saying you can't keep the same characters, setting, and big plot between two RPs, and I think a lot of people would be happier with ending an RP on a concrete episodic note than trying to drag it out to the Grand Finish. Keep the subplots to a minimum.

1). will mean having a dedicated core of 3 or so players who don't mind moving the plot along and not waiting for the others to post. Players should be familiar enough with each other's characters that they can carry them with the party even if the writer isn't there to post, trying to take the middle-road between forgetting them and god-modding. Obviously the RP founder should be one of these, and no one should found an RP if he or she won't have the time and energy to see it through. Smaller chunks of time should make predicting that easier.

The other thing is, once and whenever we settle on RP reforms, we need to test them out immediately and prove that they work. If they do, and if we get enough people who are willing to play to keep them running, then we can add back in some of the longer timelines and more complicated subplots.

Well, those are my thoughts, and I'm more than happy to admit that I don't have nearly enough experience in these matters to know whether they'll be much good. But I do want to see the RPs get some life in them again, and see a finished RPG in my Downsian lifetime!

[Durelin]

I doubt this is going to fit with the Downs overall style...but here goes...

I guess I'll just toss out possibilities. But basically what I think is necessary is a more open field. Certainly you have rules. Certainly you guide people to RPing canonically (which includes not messing around with canons, which I have been guilty of myself in the past :x). But...the style of, here is a game project. Someone has to run it. You have your plot set out, perhaps even in great detail. You need a certain number of players. Those players create characters that specifically fit in your plot and will play out your plot. They may or may not affect the plot at all. It puts a lot on the person running the game, and it takes a lot away from the players. When a game owner disappears for a time, the players are lost. When you lose a player or two, the game can be derailed if they played important characters.

I understand (though I did not witness) the change from an open RPing forum to a very firmly structured system. If you want to encourage a certain 'level' of RPing, you have to have certain rules. But I think it went too far. I think that it went too far into the realm of elitism. (A natural result of having different 'tiers' of RPing, for one thing.) And it's just clunky.

So, ideas I'll just toss out there. I'm trying to fit what I've seen work for RPing into the setting of the Downs discussion forum.

Return to one open RP forum. Maybe keep an inn, maybe not. Keep the same basic rules/expectations of what a 'post' is. Make it clear that no one is to RP any canon characters or involve them (except perhaps a passing mention or something) in their RPs. (This rule will help keep players from starting plots that turn into crazy fan-fic.)

Then let anyone start an RP -- let that be a RP with a plot, or an open-ended RP. Maybe have a separate 'RP Discussion' forum in which people can use to plot RPs or look for other RPers. Maybe someone doesn't want to run a specific storyline, but is interested in collaborating with just one, maybe two other people on some RPing and see where it goes. (They choose a setting, figure out how the characters meet up, and then they're off to doing things.)

Those who are looking for a specific 'level' of RP can pick and choose who they RP with, as they wish. Those who aren't looking to dedicate themselves to someone's plot can do something of a smaller scale.

And what about RPs 'ending' or not? Well, that's up to the players. If they don't ever reach an end, they don't reach an end. Periodically remove threads that have not been posted on in however long, and leave it at that. If the players want to return to a thread that has been removed, it's up to them to restart it.

And then there's the question of character bios... You can continue with the current method and have people post character bios to the discussion threads in which they plot their RPs. If you keep an inn (or multiple inns, if desired, to have inns in various areas of ME), you can continue a list of characters there. Players can choose whether they want to use a character just for a specific plot, or if they want to play a character throughout different plots. They can either re-post their bios for whatever they're involved in, or they can refer people to the bio posted elsewhere (and whoever's running the plot can ask them to re-post their bio, or can ask them to make a new character).

A lot of RPs have an 'application process' you do in order to play. That only works in a certain type of RP. Here you could continue to use the idea that players have to post in the inn first, if you wanted some kind of application process. They'd have to create a character that would be accepted to the inn thread, and that would be their 'test.' But that's a lot of work for whoever is moderating/running the inn thread.

Basically...loosen things up a bit. Allow for more spontaneity, which is not inherently bad. Reduce the amount of paperwork, the procedures. Let players feel less like they're being graded. Yes, this will take moderating, but not as much on the back end. It will be about stepping in when necessary rather than having to handle everything from the start.

And once you have a RPing section established, it becomes clear what kind of RPing takes place there. So, if you have an established group of players in your RP section, everyone who joins is going to see how they RP, what the protocols are, etc., and they are going to realize that they have to follow those protocols if they are to 'fit in.' So if you're afraid of a bonanza of warrior-princesses and vampires and werewolves (Sauron's buds, ya know)...that's not going to take root if you have RPs going on that are more 'realistic' to the setting/canon and RPers who aren't at all interested in those things. It's very hard to establish that from the get-go, but since the RP sections were established and reestablished years ago...hopefully a lot of that will carry over?

Does having a certain 'level' of RPing make things more fun? Yes, but how do you determine that 'level' from the get-go? Encourage good writing, 'realistic' RPs, and leave it at that. There's a trend in the forum RP world that is to call yourself an 'advanced,' 'intermediate,' or 'beginner' RPer. As soon as you put labels on it, or structure your RP around supposed 'levels,' it just stops being welcoming. It takes away from the fun. It's daunting to new players, and keeps current players edgy, wondering if their posts are going to live up to the standards 'advanced' RPers. Etc.

So...that's why I think it's better to just allow a level and style of RPing to develop based on what the moderator(s) and existing players are doing.

As Mithadan pointed out...the movie-craze is long over. Those who are spending time on the interwebs talking about or RPing Middle-earth are a different breed. The dynamic has changed...I think it's safer now to open things up.

It's always a challenge to make a RP section work...and if the feeling is that an open RP section dirties the reputation of the forum, then of course there shouldn't be one. But...this is all just for fun, isn't it?

And you're probably reading this (especially as a mod or admin) thinking...you expect someone to keep up with all this? I know it seems like a lot of work. I don't know how much it will be. It all depends on the kind of players and number of players you end up with at any given time. It also depends on how tight of a rein you feel you need to have on everything. How pristine you want every thread to look. How well you feel everyone must write. How much you want to moderate 'chattiness.' So...yea, it's a lot easier to just leave things as they are, especially since there's barely any activity so not much to keep up with. And so asking the admins and mods to make changes is asking them to do work. So I understand completely if it's just not worth the time to make any changes, regardless of who suggests them.

Re Fea's suggestions: RP ending dates used to be much more strictly enforced, but I don't think that encouraged people to keep up with them. It becomes less about writing/playing the game and more about just *finishing it* somehow. Just working through the steps of the plot as quickly as you could (which often meant the game owner just pushing things ahead periodically until the set 'end' was reached). That's not fun to me, but that's just me. Anyway, having a timeline and end dates and the like just makes it feel more like work to me.

I guess one of the big underlying problems is getting new players and keeping them. I'm not sure how to do that. You can make the RP forums more welcoming, have more open opportunities for RP, but at the same time...they have to get here somehow. And a lot of people are looking for forums dedicated entirely to RP, when they're looking to RP. The age of the RP section in a discussion forum seems to be long past, as RPs now more commonly take up entire forums. So this discussion may be kind of pointless. (Random note, if you search 'middle earth forum roleplaying' on Google, BD shows up on page 3)

(I hope this is coherent. I'm battling a cold so I'm a little empty-headed.)

Thanks for reading (especially since it's ridiculously long). I am surprised to find any responses and I really appreciate your response and openness, Mithadan.


Edit: Crossed with Mnemo.

[Folwren]

Howdy. I just noticed there was activity on this thread and decided to look in. Glad I did, although I admit to only speed reading the posts. (Sorry.) I think that a lot of the ideas put forth are good.

I would like to see more activity on the RPG threads. However, I kind of wonder if changing the rules and loosening things up will really be effective. I mean, we don't have very many new comers anyway. If loosening up means getting some old players back, I'm all for it. But it won't necessarily bring in any more new players.

Quite honestly, I think that there would be more RPing if WW was not such an over-arching part of this entire forum. So many people will spend HOURS every other day on a WW game and not show up at all for weeks on any RPGs they're part of. Is that a problem? Well, no. As Dury said, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to have fun. Is it annoying? Heck, yes, for those of us who aren't obsessed.

And that's all. I don't have anything to add to what Mnemo and Dury said. I'm all for any ideas that will improve activity in the RPGs. Only, please don't stop the Mead Hall thread, I am having so much fun there.

-- Foley

[Formendacil]

My own RP credentials are somewhat thinner than others here, but I've been reading along, and hopefully you'll forgive me contributing. As a RP mod from a (somewhat poorer quality, writing-wise) forum elsewhere, I don't have any solutions... but I do have my two pence.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I would like to see more activity on the RPG threads. However, I kind of wonder if changing the rules and loosening things up will really be effective. I mean, we don't have very many new comers anyway. If loosening up means getting some old players back, I'm all for it. But it won't necessarily bring in any more new players.

Quite honestly, I think that there would be more RPing if WW was not such an over-arching part of this entire forum. So many people will spend HOURS every other day on a WW game and not show up at all for weeks on any RPGs they're part of. Is that a problem? Well, no. As Dury said, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to have fun. Is it annoying? Heck, yes, for those of us who aren't obsessed.

Folwren makes a couple good points here. The first, in particular, bears noting, I think. The Downs is not attracting new members in droves, and those it does are not always likely to be RPers. While I think it's possible they stay away from the RP fora because they're a monolithically daunting, separate, and rule-laden part of the forum, the fact of the matter is that we don't have enough new members to really be focused on getting them into RPs.

Thus, I agree with her about needing to focus on player retention/getting back old players. Speaking for myself, the never-ending games are killer, and need tighter--and shorter--timeframes (in this respect, I agree with Mnemo generally). Not only would I be more likely to sign up for a two-week campaign or a month-long story that I actually thought would take that long, I think everyone would be more likely to actually participate, once joined.

Folwren's point about WW is valid... but I have no more solution than she does, though I do want to go on record as saying that WW siphons off a lot of RPing energy from the stable, committed members of the forum, and that as long as it continues, we're going to have a personnel problem here.

*IF* we could relatively sure that a two/three week or month-long game would actually last that long, I think one could reasonably ask players to refrain from playing WW at the same time... but, obviously, that might detract from people's desire to RP.

[Folwren]

I brought up this subject with my sister, who was here at one time as Finduilas. Anyway, she said that ensuring shorter games would make it easier for players to commit. She said, "If a game was going to last two weeks, I could commit to posting once a day for two weeks. But if it's going to last two years, I can't commit to that." So, she thought shorter games would be a good idea.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have very ambiguous feelings about the role of WW games in the development of the Downs forum. On the one hand, they have drawn in new members and formed a feeling of community that is positive for the site. On the other hand, they have taken a lot of energy away from the Books forum, which is my main concern, and from the RPs, in which I was also involved in the past. Formy makes a valid point:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I do want to go on record as saying that WW siphons off a lot of RPing energy from the stable, committed members of the forum, and that as long as it continues, we're going to have a personnel problem here.

*IF* we could relatively sure that a two/three week or month-long game would actually last that long, I think one could reasonably ask players to refrain from playing WW at the same time... but, obviously, that might detract from people's desire to RP.

I wonder - is there any way to get dedicated WW players interested in "normal" RPs again? Could a story be devised that is as much fun for them as a TiG game? After all, WW *is* roleplaying.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

...our games have become too long and complicated.

I remember being involved in a game (Corsets and Corsairs) that was fun at the start, then got so involved in subplots that it became unwieldy, slow and complicated. I don't even remember if it ever finished - I lost interest.

Probably the most interesting game I played (aside from the marvellous Entish Bow series, of course, which was something special that can never be repeated - like Yavanna's Trees or the Silmarils) was a two-person RPG involving Rimbaud and myself, with occasional guest appearances by Bêthberry. It had a clear objective and a simple plot, a minimum of characters, and a time limit. We told our story (in this case even without a discussion thread, since we did our plotting by way of chat and PM) and had fun doing so.

Isn't the time committment factor one of the central strengths of WW games? I think we can learn from their success and try to adapt their best ideas to RPing.


Thanks to Snowdog and Durelin for getting this discussion going: I'd love to see RPs being more active again - not just for involving newcomers, but also for getting more of us oldtimers active again. I had signalled interest in a game some time ago; unfortunately, it never got off the ground.