Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

the only other reason was to encourage a Nog lynch- a frame-up attempt so juvenile that I feel rather as if my intelligence is being insulted.

In last game, we let Nessa Wolfrunya live even though two or three kills pointed at her, thinking the wolves were just trying to frame her.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.

and then he overreacted his agitation in a grand scale.

I think you were actually being quite rude to him.

I want to hear more from Nog... I'm still feeling bad about him.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on.

I don't know about that. Wilwa and Sally were both gone completely it seems (though we didn't know it at the time), and the Manwe votes came fairly late in the order, so really the only people who could've launched a rescue were Mith and I, and honestly even that was out once Nerwen's vote was in. A rescue attempt was extremely likely to end in nothing except a double-lynch. So I'd say all that proves is that Mith, Manwe, and I aren't all packmates, as we would've been sure to send down an innocent with our pal.

And just to see if I'm on your page, Nog, would you agree with me when I say you've been purposefully manipulative this game, in particular attempting to plant a certain idea into the minds of the village that isn't quite truthful but could very well yield a positive result? Because at this time much of my trust of you is based upon what I thought you were trying to do Day 1. Of course it may be foolishness to expect you to deny it given what it gains you, but I do at least hope for honesty.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

Mith and phantom, you're locked in what looks to me like a "tone of voice" hang up. phantom, you didn't pick up she was actually annoyed and so you had to poke the lair of Draugluin a bit more. You used quite strong words yourself, said you were annoyed at having to stay up and look out for Mith's unpredictability, and you weren't that annoyed, really, were you?

Yes, I was annoyed. Not angry at all, nothing strong- just annoyed. It wasn't that I was being held from bed in RL, but in fact I was trying to start on another pressing project and I was getting tired of waiting, and I was also annoyed that there wasn't anyone else around (I was greatly fearing Wilwa running in last minute and casting an unpredictable vote), and annoyed that I didn't know what the one person that was around was going to do. Basically I felt like it was all on me to prevent an impending catastrophe when I really should've been working on something else. (But you're right in your assumption that I wasn't meaning to "poke the sleeping dragon", but just stating my opinion.)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

I really wish I was dead. I mean, I have a hangover, but I'm talking in werewolf terms. It is so frustrating looking at that gleaming untouched thread and knowing it has some answers in it.

Gah, don't say that! It just makes me paranoid. Seriously, I have this gnawing fear that we'll be debating something one day and everyone is sharing opinions that seem oddly formed and I'll just know that I'm the only person who isn't reading the Dead Thread!

[the phantom]

As far as the "pessimism vs optimism" thing, I frankly didn't see a great deal of the former from Nog at all, but rather he lays things out as they exist with possibilities of success and failure. Boro on the other hand I dislike because his positivity seems like sand-bagging, you know? Making it look as if the deck is stacked against his side in order to make himself feel better no matter what the outcome. Or perhaps he legitimately believes it and is in a round about way complaining. I know from experience that as a baddie it's easy to spot all the ways in which things could go horrifically wrong and it does make one feel rather optimistic on behalf of the village.

[Anguirel]

You're very tempted, phantom, aren't you! I won't break omerta myself, any more than I would, I don't know, steal Rikae's password and read her PMs. This is a comeback game, a real treat for me, and I want it to work however it's meant to work. I really don't think it's worth worrying about people breaking the rules. There are two main schools of thought about this game - Werewolf as competitive sport and Werewolf as psychological art. Both of those kinds of enjoyment would be hampered by peeking, so neither kind of player will do it. And after all, I've never known anyone cheat in Werewolf.

Speculation on the Dead Thread's outward appearance though is of course legit, and have you all noticed that Rikae is - contrary to my guess that she was a coavalta - pretty active in Mandos? What do you reckon is going on there? Just rules queries? Nerwen is on the money when she says there's a surprising amount of conversation going on there considering the population. I feel they must have received some kind of new information, or twist.

Talking of which, Fea, re those hypothetical ten werewolves - I was really referring to Diamond, who added a secret Wereduck if I remember rightly. As we both know, you tend to exaggerate rather than depreciate your minions' enemies' numbers! Your game was great, but I will always regret not persuading your own village to lynch you, 'Dark Lady'.

Legate - not having played with Manwe before, I was unaware that he was a particularly frequent scapegoat; while I regret having played a major role in lynching an unoriginal target, I must say he clearly picked the right game...perhaps he'd booked his bed in Mandos early.

I agree that Glirdan's comparison involving seers was unwise, but it seems to me not necessarily malicious. I must say that I'm known Glirdan as a Cobbler so often that I have illogical and unmathematical resistance to imagining him in that role yet again. I lean towards incautious innocent.

Aw phantom, be nice, give Mith a break and some virtual roses. But Boromir, the logical (well, the extreme) conclusion of your uneasy feeling about these veteran duellists is that they're both wolves. And if they were I could see them planning an acrimonious squabble, certainly. This theory is so amusing and attractive that I am having some trouble resisting it...

I wonder if it would be useful to make a summary of who, roughly, suspects and suspected who(m)?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommie

1. Tp and Lottie might not seem extra suspicious but they kind of annoy(ed) me. 2. I know it was far-fetched, but worth pointing out. I wouldn't discredit the idea of cobblers trying to pass on information to the wolves via hints. 3. I feel so much like saying: in all seriousness, I'm not a cobbler, but I think that wouldn't help my case.

1. Not surprised. 2. I agree that the cobblers will want to hint at the wolves, but the "hint" you found in Boro's post didn't seem like a hint at all to me. 3. Love.

Originally Posted by Lom

Okay now that was too much! You always suspect me, at least on Day1. Are you intentionally trying to mislead people about this??

This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do!

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't get why tp is so obsessed about the dead thread. Pardon me for bringing the cobblers up again, but that strikes me as something a phabbler would do: smoothly and subtly try to concentrate the discussion on something rather irrelevant, but not too relevant to raise too many eyebrows.

I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.

[Anguirel]

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Green

This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do!

I think you always suspect me on Day1 and drop it on Day2.

Originally Posted by Green

I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.

Well I think he was doing that yesterDay.


edit: xed with Ang. I, for one, can wait.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.

It is perfectly possible no wolf was there at the DL, but as you said there were quite many people (and what you say about wolves' general willingness to make it for the DL) so it seems very probable there were wolves around.

As I very well know my innocence and now feel like Mänwe was an innocent as well, it would mean the top two contenders for lynching in the end of yesterDay were innocents and the wolves were in no panic to make any strong moves. There is a chance that some of the last votes were made to make a double-lynch possible, and a slight chance there could have been a faint attempt to help Mänwe (I think the latter a bit far-fetched, but possible, surely, otherwise I'd say I have strong and explicit reasons to firmly allege that Mänwe was/is innocent ).

Mänwe is a cobbler? Surely. Perfectly possible. If he thought both me and Shasta were innocents that "fueling the flames" -comment that probably got him lynched would look like a cobblery one.

I said innocent, not ordo, or ordinary innocent. Meaning he's not a wolf (whom the others tried to save). I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.

Originally Posted by Agan

I think you were actually being quite rude to him.

I do think it is a perfectly valid and normal way of playing werewolf that you speculate on the motives behind what someone says looking how a wolf-X would have thought and which would have been her/his motives - or how what X said could be said by a wolf-X.

I said he picked me from me and tp because it was the easier pick as I would not be there to defend myself. A perfectly valid point I think as I could see no real difference in the input of what I and the phantom had been talking. And of course we had been the voice of reason there, so him suspecting us from being seriously helpful and making sense felt really wolvish to me. (I must say I was actually quite puzzled as to how tp seemed to think about the same things and in generally the same way - but more of the phantom later as I have now changed my mind on him a bit).

Let's look at your own post Aganzir: you say

are you intentionally trying to mislead us?

I don't know if it's a generational, linguistical or whateverical difference that is involved, but to me what I quoted from your post means openly entertaining a possibility that I am intentionally trying to mislead people and thus have bad intentions - which is exactly what my post on Shasta did: it openly entertained a possibility that he made certain convenient choices for a wolf.

I can't see you being able to deny that what you wanted to express by that quoted part was asking others to think that I am intentionlly trying to mislead - and thus think that I'm having bad intentions aka. being a baddie of some sort.

The fact that you used a questionmark doesn't change the substance or the willed effect of the intended message.

Still, I'm not calling you rude or get crazy.