Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

(That's NOT a shot at Shasta's honor! Just a thought that I had earlier today.)

[the phantom]

First, some thoughts I jotted down during my reread of yesterday.

The following were definitely doing some gameplay yesterday (if you know what I mean)-
Anguirel
Nogrod
Boromir

At this time I'm leaning solidly towards Ang and Nog as good-guys and Boro as a baddie.

In general the other players seemed to be doing less purposeful manipulation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get vibes from them.

In my readthrough I didn't feel so bad about that lynch from yesterday, but I guess maybe we'll learn about that soon enough. Fea is good. So is Shasta (but that's rather an obvious conclusion now). I don't feel good about Mith, and possibly Nessa, but I don't have experience with her so I'm not certain. I still don't like Lommy, and possibly Greenie, but my feeling on her is somewhat based upon Lommy.

I'm very very curious about Agan. She seems to be extremely locked in, and yet it didn't seem to me that she was invested in the game. Sort of like a robot playing, you know? I never felt for a second she was up to anything at all good or bad. It was weird. Has anyone ever seen her like that?

Other people I'm mostly undecided on. And now I'm going to do a vote analysis and see if anyone looks good or bad based upon that.

[the phantom]

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen
Lottie ++ Manwe (2)
Boro ++ Legate (2)
Glirdan ++ Lommy (2)
Ang ++ Manwe (3)
Nerwen ++ Manwe (4)
Mith ++ Legate (3)
Phantom ++ Manwe (5)

Well, that's yesterday's voting. Given the fact that we do not know Manwe's affiliation, it's extremely difficult to speculate. If he's evil than obviously Nerwen and Ang look quite good. If he's innocent and Nog, Legate, or Lommy is guilty, then Nerwen and Ang don't look good. If none of the lead candidates were Wolves then votes could be hidden anywhere.

Meh. I don't like not knowing roles after death. Makes things difficult.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????

Ha ha, no, I haven't read the Dead Thread. By habit I clicked on it when Rikae first put it up, but I stopped reading immediately when I read the opening lines, which said something along the lines of "If you're alive stop reading now!"

In talking before the game I mentioned that it would be a great temptation for me given that I would feel certain that other people were reading it and thus gaining an advantage against me, but I gave my word not to read it, and so I won't.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle.

I don't follow your point. The Wolves knew Shasta wasn't a Wolf, and that's all they can know. What I'm saying is that they'd have no reason whatsoever to assume he was the Seer that spotted an evil Nog, because given this game set up do you think for a minute that he would've behaved so had that been the case? They killed him for some other reason. Now, you might perhaps say that it might've entered into their minds, "Ooo, maybe the village will go for Nog as a side-effect", but I doubt that they'd be that deluded.

[the phantom]

My "grrr" at you Mith and my bad feeling about you is due to the fact that you waited so long to vote for reasons unknown, and up until then you had given little indication as to which way you were going. If you were purposefully trying to cause an accidental multiple lynch that's precisely the way to get it done.

I was extremely irritated because as the deadline ticked closer I was getting very worried that you'd force me to miss the deadline or cross-vote with you and another person who hadn't voted yet and cause a massive pile-up.

You don't have to vote the way I want you to. I don't care- go your own way. That's fine. But when we're in the final minutes and you're not telling me who you won't vote for and who you might vote for I sort of assume that you're hoping for a crash.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by phantom

I don't follow your point. The Wolves knew Shasta wasn't a Wolf, and that's all they can know. What I'm saying is that they'd have no reason whatsoever to assume he was the Seer that spotted an evil Nog, because given this game set up do you think for a minute that he would've behaved so had that been the case? They killed him for some other reason. Now, you might perhaps say that it might've entered into their minds, "Ooo, maybe the village will go for Nog as a side-effect", but I doubt that they'd be that deluded.

Okay, I now understand what you're saying as well and agree that he was killed for some other reason and I tend to agree with you about the Wolves being deluded for the Nog set up. I wasn't following at first, and now I'm on the same train.

EDIT: Bed time folks, be back some time later in the Day.

[the phantom]

No one else around, I guess.

I've waited long enough. Bed.

[Loslote]

As we don't have as much hard facts here, I'm going to sort this list by "gut feelings" with some explainations following.

White as Snow:
Lottie

Ivory like a Walrus Tooth:
Glirdy (I can usually tell when he's a wolf, and he doesn't seem evil this game.)
Mith (I haven't played with her before, I don't think, but she doesn't ring alarming bells...)
Agan (I seriously considered putting her in Grey, but decided at the last moment that she fits here as well as anywhere. Again, based on tone of post alone.)
Greenie (She seems like normal Greenie. For now, I'll leave her be.)
Nerwen (She makes good points, and while I know she's a wicked wolfie, I'm inclinded to keep a wary eye on her but focus more on others.)
Fea (What I've seen of her looks all clever and helpful)

Grey like Winnie-the-Pooh Impersonating a Storm Cloud (Confusing):
Nog (I can seriously never read him.)
tp (He's tp; he sort of goes in the "no clue" category by default.)
Ang (Never played with him, and I'll wait a bit more to get a better grasp on his playing style before trying to gather impressions.)
Legate (Didn't really attract my attention much one way or another.)

Silent as a Hobbit Who's Had A Bit Too Much Ale And Has Passed Out (Subby):
BeiGei (Has she even posted?)
Wilwa (Not around enough yet.)
Nessa (Short, scarse posts = no read)
Elronhubbard (Not enough posts to form an opinion.)
Sally (Did she have just the one post? I can't remember any others.)

Dark as a Certain Pair of Black High Heels:
Lommy (Her early vote on Manwe confuses me, and her tone strikes me as off...not entirely sure why, and hardly convinced of anything, but not comfortable with her, either.)
Boro (Sets off alarms in a no-real-substance sort of way.)

So, yeah, I'd like to see more out of my Grey, Silent, and Dark people, and the Ivory people I'm (temporarily) okay with and not going to vote for.

[Aganzir]

I started this ages ago and have been distracted every now and then, but I'm going to post it nonetheless in case its of any use.

Lommy ++ Manwe:
He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all.
Earlier she said "Only banter this far. Cobbler?" She didn't vote for Nerwen (who was Wolf?) or Lottie (whom she didn't like).
The vote seems quite random and easy in a "I don't want any responsibility for the lynch" kind of way. Lommy has played with Mänwe before and should know bantering doesn't necessarily make him evil.

Legate ++ Nessa:
Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me.
Said Lottie looked cobblerish but he'd rather vote for someone who looked like a wolf. Lommy looked odd but he'd like to see more. Nessa only gave him a ??? feeling.
He could of course have voted for someone he was actually suspicious of, but he said he'll probably go for a submarine. His vote doesn't ring any alarms.

Green ++ Lommy:
since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example).
She went consistently after Lommy since her first post. I find the vote somewhat fishy though. Granted, I see what she means about Lommy but she seems to explain her vote in more length than necessary - no one expects day 1 votes to be fully reasoned.

Shasta ++ Nog:
I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!"
Nog was giving advice to the baddies and defending phantom's (suspicious) actions.
I disagree with his reasons for voting Nog but given how suspicious Nog was, I'm good with his vote.

Agan ++ Nog (2):
(insert a lot of disagreeing with Nog over the day)

Shasta ++ Shasta
phantom... What is this? Ahh it's Nog ++ Shasta:
He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.
Earlier he made a list of (quiet) people he'd like to vote for and said he could vote Shasta who was giving him evil vibes but he doesn't want to base his vote on retaliation. Nog always gets more paranoid/aggressive when it's late, but I really think he was trying to put words in Shasta's mouth. I'm not too fond of his vote.

Manwe ++ Green:
A Little Green- three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor.
I'm not sure I would've gone so far as to vote for Greenie based on that (you could basically say it about anybody) but I understand why he might have found her suspicious.

Daughter ++ Nog (3):
Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost.
So either Nog or Shasta had to be a baddie? I have nothing against someone voting for Nog, but this is a very easy vote.

Nessa ++ Legate:
Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.
Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?
So you voted for him because you thought he was innocent?

Fea ++ Nerwen:
Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one.
You think she's going to be useful even though you don't know if she's good or bad?

Lottie ++ Manwe (2):
for his rather worrisome post...
To me it doesn't look like he was trying to make Nog & Shasta's fight worse and Lottie seems to be making way too much of a single comment.

Boro ++ Legate (2):
Those two seem to be making too much out of my suspicions.
That's an alright reason even if I don't agree with him on Legate.

Glirdan ++ Lommy (2):
To do a quick recap: don't like here wishy-washy feeling, don't like her vote. Most of her posts have been banterish, time for that was long gone when she voted.
Understandable.

Ang ++ Manwe (3):
In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod.
Ang tied Mänwe with Nog which led to Mänwe's death. If Nog is a baddie, it makes Ang look bad.

Nerwen ++ Manwe (4):
So, it's Manwe and Nog tied at 3 votes each? Okay, then, that simplifies things–
She didn't really speak of Nog while she agreed Lottie brought up a point against Mänwe.

Mith ++ Legate (3):
Lommy did say she had a busy day and I don't like his trumped up "case" against me. Nothing better to go with for today.
It was a throw away in the sense that it was highly unlikely Legate would've been lynched, but that's okay if she didn't suspect any of the main candidates.

Phantom ++ Manwe (5)
I still want to kill Lommy if we have the votes to do it.
At least he made sure there would be no double lynch...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You don't have to vote the way I want you to. I don't care- go your own way. That's fine. But when we're in the final minutes and you're not telling me who you won't vote for and who you might vote for I sort of assume that you're hoping for a crash.

Right llets get a few things straight. Your vote is your own responsibility. Mine is mine. I didn't notice in all the blessed rules you have felt the need to create for yourself that votes had to be notified to some self appointed vote monitor.

I didn't say because you know what I hadn't decided. I had hoped to vote earlier but you know what Day one, desperately unclear, no one obliging enough to confess to lycanthropy. So I thought I'd try to stay up a bit but I fell asleep. So lynch me for being tired. Then I had very little time.

So I had wanted to vote Legate - well because he was saying things that basically were not true on empirical evidence about me and that and the lists made me very suspicious. But he had one and then 2 votes with slim reason and there was a danger of a 3 way lynch if I went ahead. I think I posted to that effect but I haven't been back yet to check. So since I had a vague memory of you behaving in this dictatorial manner another time when you were innocent so I took a quick look at Lommie to see if there was anything that justified it. The only thing that seemed really odd was the fact she had made so few posts but she had notified that this was likely. So benefit of the doubt. By that point MAnwe was out in front and I thought it ok to go with my own choice. Frankly I can't think of anything more wolvish than to vote for someone because you have been told to.

Whatever... I am so remembering why I haven't played for so long.

[Anguirel]

Mith and phantom, you're locked in what looks to me like a "tone of voice" hang up. phantom, you didn't pick up she was actually annoyed and so you had to poke the lair of Draugluin a bit more. You used quite strong words yourself, said you were annoyed at having to stay up and look out for Mith's unpredictability, and you weren't that annoyed, really, were you? Just mildly surprised at not having absolute power and desirous of going to bed? I mean, that's how I feel all the time, basically, and especially at 4 o'clock in the morning. You really have to give us Britaynes some allowances near the deadline. We aren't exactly thinking and writing with Ciceronian exactitude. We're more like crack fiends.

I feel the squabble is basically avoidable. Mith, you shouldn't take what the phantom says in lordly mode as any form of real personal attack. I really don't think he can help it. I've never seen him play humble - even as a tactic.

I haven't cleared either of you, by the way, but I must say you both sound completely typical. It is, though, an attribute of the phantom to sound reasonable and of Mith to sound innocent.

***

I really wish I was dead. I mean, I have a hangover, but I'm talking in werewolf terms. It is so frustrating looking at that gleaming untouched thread and knowing it has some answers in it. I mean, I expect more than the on-the-face content lurks in the world of the dead. I was reared in the Werewolf academy of Fea and Diamond. When I die, I expect there to a Crazy Twist. Something like:

"You are actually a Son of Feanor and have the combined special powers of the entire Tol-in-Gaurhoth Grimoire. On the other hand, there are actually ten werewolves."

Even that apart, the existence of Mandos is tantalisingly enigmatic. I'm not a person given to overly metaphysical situation. I worship the pagan gods and doubt they'll grant me an afterlife in a hurry. Suddenly I know what it means to be a religious thinker, a philosopher, whatever. Obsessed by the question of what happens when you die...

Okay. Manwe. I suppose I cast the vote that was instrumental in killing him, and by that token saved Nogrod and Lommy. I was aware of casting a highly, almost suspiciously significant vote when I did it. But I'd stayed up late and I really wanted to do something that would matter, with that usual unfortunate qualifier, 'for good or ill'. Certainly I voted him not because I suspected him strongly, but I suspected the others less. He was probably the most uncontroversial candidate for hanging on offer.

I regard Shasta as more likely to be an Innocent than a Cobbler. But I should reread to check if that's more than gut.

[Aganzir]

So Glirdan what did you think to achieve when comparing Shasta's behaviour to his seer self?

Originally Posted by phantom

She seems to be extremely locked in, and yet it didn't seem to me that she was invested in the game.

I see what you mean but I think it might be because I've never been alone while playing - yesterday I had people over (and now I'm posting while my friends are sleeping) so half my mind is always somewhere else.

I don't particularly like the Mänwagon. There weren't very good points against him - stressing the significance of his "trying to escalate Shasta & Nog's fight" was rather making a mountain out of a molehill, I think. At least Lommy and Nog had been suspected (of cobblery), so I think it'd make more sense for a wolf/cobbler not to vote for them, just to be on the safe side - unless Mänwe was a wolf.

At the moment I'm inclined to say one of Lommy and Greenie is a baddie. Lommy was looking cobblerish, but it was actually only after Greenie pointed it out that peoples started suspecting her. The problem with Greenie is, she's being too nice to me. She questioned me a bit but dropped it quickly and said she's okay with me. Usually when we're both innocent this bickering continues for a few days after which we basically trust each other. But now she seems different - you know, accusing me just for the sake of doing it and stopping it before I retaliate.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

First Dobbin and now– my priceless treasure! Why?

Don't forget your Lúthien. I think these baddies are trying to frame Nerwen...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Agan

So Glirdan what did you think to achieve when comparing Shasta's behaviour to his seer self?

Sorry, what?? It's 7am here, I literally just woke up and will need a little more then that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

I am ready to do so. Like Agan, I believe that the "fight" between Shasta and Nog that he was "trying to escalate" was an all to easy reason to put the blame on an easy target, who already had two (again, very poorly reasoned) votes, that a Wolf wanted to see gone, and I would not be surprised if one of the later voters out of the five was a Wolf. However, this does not put the two early voters against him in the clear either.

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die. He could have just as easily voted Legate or Nog to bring it to a double lynch, but instead voted for Manwe. Now, he could be an innocent who didn't want to see Nog or Legate go (I recall him saying he rather wanted to keep them around), or a very clever Cobbler or Wolf masking his vote in that way to keep suspicion off of himself. What really gets me about him was that he was adamant on voting for Lommy and then turned around and voted Manwe. Granted, he said he wouldn't have minded seeing Manwe lynched, but I would still like and explanation from him.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I don't feel good about Mith.

Why becasue I wouldn't do what you told me to? Well if that is the case get used to it. Few things annoy me more in this context is being told how to vote especially if they haven't committed themselves. Don't trust you enough yet to let myself be so maniputlated so get used to not feeling good or put your money where your mouth is. Don't seee how your feeling constitutes evidence unles we are doing divination by the examination of entrails and there are enough of those around already. Grr yourself.

[Nerwen]

First Dobbin and now– my priceless treasure! Why?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

EDIT:X'd with phantom.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by phantom

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????

To be honest, I'm kind of quite surprised by yesterDay's lynch. Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

Originally Posted by phantom

And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

I will be around for a little while longer, but then have to go to bed as I work in the morning.