Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Galadriel55]

Returning to the original question, though, I think that Tolkien didn't mean to hint anything sexual. The way I understood it, that moment was simply an embrace, nothing serious. You see similar things in other relationships that were entioned above - Faramir kissed Eowyn before marying her, and Sam most likely hugged Rosie. Aragorn and Arwen, being what they are, ost likely did not express their feelings in public, but there was also Arwen's dilemma of who to become - elf or human. I'm guessing that she didn't allow herself to physically express her love for Aragorn until she finally made the choice.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Returning to the original question, though, I think that Tolkien didn't mean to hint anything sexual. The way I understood it, that moment was simply an embrace, nothing serious.

Well, such things are all in the eye of the beholder; take, for example, these lines from the Lay of Leithian:

Originally Posted by Lay of Leithian Canto IV

In hour enchanted long ago
her arms around his neck did go,
and gently down she drew to rest
his weary head upon her breast.

To you this may be a chaste embrace, to me it's the most subtly erotic moment in all of Tolkien's works; in any case, I get a strong impression that there was nothing un-serious about that embrace.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You see similar things in other relationships that were entioned above - Faramir kissed Eowyn before marying her, and Sam most likely hugged Rosie.

Yes, but all of these were mortal-mortal couples; the Elves took a slightly different stance in this matter. As several of the posters above us have pointed out, there simply was, by definition, no such thing as pre-marital sex for the Elves (relevant quote from Laws and Customs given by mark 12_30 in #3), since, in their eyes, it was the sexual act that made the marriage, not the ceremony (and speaking from personal experience, I feel that Tolkien had a good point here); so if Beren and Lúthien did it, they were from that moment on legally married in Elvish eyes, with or without Thingol's blessing.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Aragorn and Arwen, being what they are, ost likely did not express their feelings in public, but there was also Arwen's dilemma of who to become - elf or human. I'm guessing that she didn't allow herself to physically express her love for Aragorn until she finally made the choice.

I think you may be right in this case - for all the fuss that is made about Arwen's likeness to Lúthien, she wasn't that much like her ancestress in character. There's just no way Lúthien would have been content with watching over Beren from afar and embroidering banners. Even given that Aragorn first fell in love with Arwen as a twen and needed time to mature, he was well in his eighties, far travelled and battle-hardened at the time of LotR, and I think Lúthien, in Arwen's place, would have insisted on going with the Fellowship (or found a way to follow them, if daddy denied her).

[Galadriel55]

Yeah, Luthien was more foward in this sense than Arwen

[Mithalwen]

I think in the notes to LACE Tolkien makes it clear that they regaraded it as a matter of honour not to present Thingol with a fait accompli..

Even though, as many of you know, I could hardly like Luthien less, she is less passive than Arwen. There is a sense that she carves her destiny while Arwen born in her image lets fate unwind. Leads to all sorts of questions (which I can not necessarily answer) about the workings of fate and destiny in the books since Eowyn who could be seen as a instrument of destiny withregard to the witch-king, has to defy the de-facto paternal authority over her to fulfil the prophecy whereas is like some cloistered heroine in a pre-raphaelite painting waiting for external events to decide her fate.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

There's just no way Lúthien would have been content with watching over Beren from afar and embroidering banners... I think Lúthien, in Arwen's place, would have insisted on going with the Fellowship (or found a way to follow them, if daddy denied her).

Maybe, but there is another (I think) significant difference between the conditions surrounding Beren & Aragorn.

Beren had been maneuvered into accepting a "hopeless" (meaning almost everyone considered it hopeless) quest that was *INTENDED* to kill off Beren. Luthien desperately wanted to avoid that death and was willing to do practically anything to save Beren.

She was even willing, as I recall, to abandon Beleriand, her mother, her people, her father, etc and wander into the east with just Beren. It was Beren who refused that path for them.

Aragorn, on the other hand, remained high in the Favor of Elrond, and in his love. He was not "sent" on any "hopeless" quest aimed at his death far from help. Rather he was gladly and willingly engaged in a HEROIC effort to defeat Sauron and restore peace and hope to all peoples of the west. A task in which he had Elrond's whole-hearted support and aid (at least so far as Elves would aid anyone).

Also, Luthien was the daughter of a Maia and had various abilities which Arwen lacked (like the ability to sing Morgoth's whole court into slumber).

Arwen, in the books, is not reported to have much of any especial talents (at least where war is concerned). She wasn't the one who caused the Bruinen to rise - that was commanded by Elrond (it was only PJ who turned that into an Arwenian incantation). And even there, there is no suggestion that even ELROND could have caused just any river to rise - making that less useful in fighting Sauron in Mordor or Gondor.

And, finally, Beren's quest was (essentially) a one-man task (or two, with Luthien). Aragorn - once he got to the theater of action - was involved over and over in pitched battles. There is no suggestion in the books that Arwen was either an accomplished swordswoman (shieldmaiden?) or archer [or that Luthien was, for that matter - remember that she did NOT go on the final hunting of the wolf, when Beren was killed].

[Galadriel55]

It is also possible that Arwen was less passionate than Luthien and didn't want to give up everything she had for a man who is more than likely to die in one of the wars for the Ring. As I've said before, she probably still didn't make her choice yet.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

As I've said before, she probably still didn't make her choice yet.

It seems pretty clear (imo) from the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" (RoTK Apdx A) that she made her choice in 2980 when Aragorn met her again in Lorien after returning from deeds in the south.

• Aragorn: Neither, lady, is the Twilight for me; for I am mortal, and if you will cleave to me, Evenstar, the the Twilight you must also renounce.
• And she stood still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said:
• Arwen: I will cleave to you, Dunadan, and turn from the Twilight...
• When Elrond heard the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grived and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.

I suppose it's an open question whether such a choice, once made, could be changed. Aragorn seemed to think it could. Even as he lay on his death bed he suggested Arwen should change her mind and go into the West - tho that would mean sundering their destinies BEYOND THE CIRCLES OF THE WORLD. Arwen didn't really say such a change was not "allowed", only that there was no remaining ship to take.

Interestingly, that wasn't strictly true, since Legloas built his own ship and sailed into the west shortly after.

Arwen must have been wise enough to realize ships "could" be built (if that was all that was needed). So, maybe she was really just reaffirming her choice one last time.

[Galadriel55]

I haven't read The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, but you are probably right. Maybe Arwen just didn't want to commit herself to her choice right away as Luthien did.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't read The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, but you are probably right. Maybe Arwen just didn't want to commit herself to her choice right away as Luthien did.

Are you saying you have not read all of Lord of the Rings?

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is, as Puddleglum has pointed out, part of LotR, found in Appendix A, part v. It is a substantial part of the story, one of the few parts of the Appendices that Tolkien insisted upon, when a translation threatened to ditch them. It contains probably Tolkien's most poignant part of his characterisation of Arwen. It is particularly significant because it describes events in the Fourth Age, after the War of the Ring (whereas much of the Appendices pre-date the Fellowship and War).

So it's kind of crucial to any understanding of Arwen.