WW LXXXII: Return to Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Thinlómien]

"As your king, I do not forbid you to go. But as your friend, I advise you not to."
Lady Thinlómien looked up at Finrod Felgund, king of Nargothrond, a little defiantly.
"But Celegorm and Curufin are not hunting wolves. Soon they'll be running amok ever closer to Nargothrond." The words came out as an accusation although that was not the Lady's intention.
"They are your kinsmen, Thinlómien, and although I am their king they are their own lords and may hunt as they will."
"Then I will go, in their stead."
"My heart is heavy. I see only darkness ahead of you and those who may go with you."
Thinlómien knelt before him. Gently, she said: "Somebody has to go and stop the hounds of Sauron. Let me go, my king."
"Go then, friend. Anar kalúva tielyanna."

So Lady Thinlómien went and chose the fourteen best hunters of her household. Among them were her three childhood friends; the Four Singers they had been called in the West though few now remembered it. They accepted her invitations gravely, the one who sang great songs of growth and warding, the one to whom songs came in dreams and the singer who was even more fiery in spirit than Lady Thinlómien herself. Foreseeing an unknown evil, she asked her friends to keep their gifts in secret and use them only in the direst need.

So they set out, Thinlómien and the best hunters of her household and a dozen friends of hers. Once they had set out of the gates of Nargothrond, they were joined by Huan, the mighty hound of Thinlómien's kinsman Celegorm, who hunted even when his master chose not to.

Days they travelled in the wildernesses and desolate lands, bordering ever closer to the dreadful isle of Tol-in-Gaurhoth which had once been the beautiful fortress of Minas Tirith. They hunted down and slew many wolves, until they were waylaid by the great wolf Draugluin and a host of wargs and orcs. The Elves fought valiantly, but they were overpowered and instead of killing them, the enemies sought to take them captive. The noble hound Huan slew many wolves but before he could engage in a fight with their leader, Thinlómien turned to him and spoke: "Huan, you loyal friend! Flee now that you still can and take tidings of our fate to Nargothrond. Your fate lies still ahead of you while our path darkens. Go, there is no hope in this fight!" The wise hound bowed his head and reluctantly he slipped to the growing darkness and ran away.

Lady Thinlómien and those who remained of her folk - seven hunters; Eönwë and Wilwarin, solitary Shastanis, impatient Nerwen, young Ozban, old Green and the sleepy master Nogrod, Pitch the Furrier, the jeweller Legate and the weaponsmith Inziladun, Boromir the Gatewarden, Glirdan the Scholar, Skip who seeked to impress the Lady Finduilas and the youth Loslote who had pleaded to come along - were made captive and taken to the Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves.

They were taken to Sauron, the right hand of the Enemy and a lord of werewolves. He questioned them and wanted to know who they were and what they were doing. The Elves refused to tell him anything, and only when he threatened to torture her folk did Lady Thinlómien tell him who they were and what was their mission. And Sauron laughed, for he was pleased.
"Hunters of wolves, you say. Then I will save your lives - if you go to the north and steal the cubs of the dire wolves there and bring them to me to raise, I will save your lives and you can live here as respected servants of a mighty lord."
"We will never serve the dark!" Lady Thinlómien burst out.
"That we will see. Take the Elves to the dungeons and torture them to see if they yield. If they don't, take them to the pits and my wolves will devour them one by one until they do."
"You will not do this to me and my people! We will never yield!"
Sauron laughed again and angered by his mockery, Lady Thinlómien wove a great song into which she put all her power and all her love for the beautiful things of this world and of the world in the West and sought to bring the light of the other side into the dark castle. Threatened, Sauron wove his own song, and a mighty singer was he indeed. The love and beauty he destroyed with hate and cruelty and the light with a never-ending darkness. So was the Elven Lady's song shattered and broken, she was taken to the dungeons and her fourteen companions were taken with her.

Long they were tortured by Sauron's servants, but none of them faltered, none would give in. Enraged, Sauron took three of them and with a great spell of evil, destroyed all that was good in their minds and left only the vilest thoughts and darkest desires. Then he cloaked them in hides of great wolves. "You belong to me now. Every night, you shall slay one of them until they give in to me or until only you, my loyal ones, remain. You know who to start with."

By ill luck the most faint-hearted of Lady Thinlómien's folk happened to hear these words in the pit where she was shackled. A great despair settled on her and she knew there was no other chance for her to survive this than to give in to the Enemy. She begged him to take her as his servant but he scorned her and asked: "Why should I take as mine the most cowardly?" And she cried, shamed, and wished to die. There was only one path out of this for her now: to try to find the three the Lord of Werewolves had changed and gain their sympathy.

When night finally fell, all the Elves were taken to the deepest and darkest of all the dungeons on the isle. There the lay in quiet dread until they fell asleep.

~*~

Night 1 has now begun. Wolves, you may PM with each other. Seer, you may send me your first dream. Hunter, if you for some weird reason want to make a pick toNight, you are allowed to do so.

~*~

The Player List
A Little Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir88 - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Glirdan - local batty scholar
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Legate of Amon Lanc - jeweller with an affinity to the colour white
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Pitchwife - furrier
Shastanis Althreduin - orphan solitary hunter who moves silently, likes blue and has a pet snake
skip spence - an admirer of Finduilas's
wilwarin538 - hunter


The Admin Thread with the Rules

[Thinlómien]

It was pitch dark in the pit and all the sounds were muffled by the suffocating pressure that lay in the air. The three whose wills had been taken by the lord of wolves seeked each other out at the secret gate that led out of the pit. Now in their wolf skins they exchanged a few words - almost gnarls - and let their canine noses take them to her who was to die tonight.

Lady Thinlómien was not asleep and she could hear their soft paws on the stone floor. She sat up erect, looking up to where the sky and the stars should've been but where there was only black. She knew they were coming for her, but there was no strength left in her, she was all spent by the brief and terrible contest of wills with the dark so much beyond her power.

A warm wave of foul breath touched her face.
"So you have come," she said.
"Yes," whispered one of them.
"There are no words for the horror that befell you. I pity you," she said. She had heard their torture and had been unable to stop it. "The Eldar do not take their own lives willingly, but maybe you should do it this once."
"We are no Eldar. We are wolves now," said another of the foreign voices.
"Who were you?" Thinlómien said softly. Her voice was barely more than a whisper.
"We have no names now," said a third voice, and the first one said: "Not in the dark."
"Do what you came to do, then," Thinlómien said sharply. "There might be no hope for me anymore, but there will be hope for others."
"Hope? There is no hope in this place," said the second voice and with one graceful movement a wolf's claw across her throat, lady Thinlómien lay dead in the cold dungeon.

The wolves retreated and resumed their places along the walls of the pit. Slowly they drifted to dreamless sleep.

The Ranger, as she had once been called jokingly by her friends who were greatly amused of her protectivity, did not sleep that night. Something horrible was happening, she knew, but there was no way for her to stop it, not yet. Quietly she sang a great song of growth and warding until her hair reached to her toes. Then she told it to come off and made a great dark net out of it and wove all her strength as threads to a pattern of protection. All night she worked with her net of warding and when dawn finally came, she hid it among the shadows that crawled along the walls.

The Seer, as she had once been nicknamed by her childhood friend Thinlómien, did sleep. Among the nightmares of the terrible Isle of Werewolves, she forced the music of her dreams bring before her eyes the heart of one of her companions to see if there was evil there. When she woke up, she knew.

The Hunter, so called because she was the most courageous and cunning of all the hunters captured, was the first one to detect the faintest trace of sunlight in the air, invincibly streaming from a tiny crack in the roof. The light fell on the body of her friend, Lady Thinlómien. With a few quick steps she was with her and she knew she couldn't do anything to save her friend. So she only reached for the dead woman's boot and to her staisfaction, she noticed her friend had done as she had told her to do and hidden a dagger there. They had not dared to search the Lady as they had searched the Hunter herself and all the others. Gently, the Hunter closed her friend's eyes and kissed the dagger. "You will revenge," she whispered. Then she hid it in her own boot.

"Dawn is here," she said loudly. "And our courageous Lady is no more. It's time to wake up and find the culprits. I, for one, would have a word with them."

Slowly, the Elves opened their eyes to see it was not pitch dark anymore, only dark. For a while they saw the vague shape of a tall Elf standing in amidst the shadows but soon she had disappeared and blended with the rest of them. All the Elves huddled together and after a moment of quiet, one of them spoke.

~*~

Day1 has started! Wolves, stop PMing. Hunter, you may send a pick any time you want. Everybody, you may talk on this thread now.

The Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - murdered in cold blood on Night1

The Living
Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Glirdan - local batty scholar
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Legate - jeweller with an affinity to the colour white
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Pitch - furrier
Shastanis - orphan solitary hunter who moves silently, likes blue and has a pet snake
Skip - an admirer of Finduilas's
Wilwarin - hunter

[Nogrod]

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

Oh, no, you say? Well, let's talk then. Although it looks like a basic set up by Sauron, and so most of the dynamics-issues will be quite down-to-earth and familiar from our previous training-sessions.

So let's talk. After I finish my little C.S.I. nap... *falls down in narcolepsy*

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

You had me at "let's get uncloaked"...now what?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

How can we hope to defeat this terrible darkness, which douses all light, even if Lady Thinlómien could not? But we shall not let the darkness prevail, at least! As long as there is light in the world outside, as long as there is beauty of skill, creation and art, we have to stand against those soulless beasts in our midst. Even if we don't have the victory against the Dark One, we will not give up hope!

It is true what Nogrod said here, that we are lucky for no drastic twists which sometimes come from the minds of those who set-up such schemes as the one we have gotten ourselves into... If there is anything that troubles me now, it is the selection of people, because basically all of you, my friends, are the ones I consider of the most bold and clever, in one way or another, and I would not like any of you to be on the side of evil...

Nonetheless... to stir some discussion... there is only one "unusual" thing at most (or slightly unusual, as it mostly appears in such settings anyway, but sometimes not), and that is the traitor in our midst... who, although hasn't been mentioned in the nightly events, is among us, as is said elsewhere... generally I do not deem such person dangerous (here a possible stir for discussion?) by itself, but a thing to consider for example if any of our Gifted friends (especially the Seer) decided to come out, it is quite likely that e.g. this traitor - Cobbler - might do lots of things to create trouble, and one of these things is pretending to be a Seer or something like that (as it has happened many times in the past)... so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point... I mean, I am not so worried about Cobbler revealing in such a way, because if he/she fakes a Seer and says "X is a wolf, lynch him" and we listen to him/her, then soon we will know whether he/she is lying or not...

I am saying, I believe, quite obvious, or easily recognisable things, but then, it is not so obvious, and just in case... and also, like I said, it's Day 1. We don't have any lead to start with, we should stir some discussion. So let's do it, so that by the end of the Day we can have some idea whom to vote...

We can, of course, discuss anything and I hope this will only be one pinch which will help this not to be a quiet and random Day 1.

I am going to hang around with you for a while yet, but I am probably soon going to join Nogrod in some sleep... nonetheless hope to see the discussion happening once I come back later on.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

As long as there is no uncloaking in the manner of Olórin in the West.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nonetheless... to stir some discussion... there is only one "unusual" thing at most (or slightly unusual, as it mostly appears in such settings anyway, but sometimes not), and that is the traitor in our midst... who, although hasn't been mentioned in the nightly events, is among us, as is said elsewhere... generally I do not deem such person dangerous (here a possible stir for discussion?)

Though this person acts only during the Day and isn't as dangerous as the foul wolves of Sauron, they shall certainly be aiding evil whenever they can. We must take care not to dismiss them as a lesser threat if they are identified.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

but a thing to consider for example if any of our Gifted friends (especially the Seer) decided to come out, it is quite likely that e.g. this traitor - Cobbler - might do lots of things to create trouble, and one of these things is pretending to be a Seer or something like that (as it has happened many times in the past)... so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point... I mean, I am not so worried about Cobbler revealing in such a way, because if he/she fakes a Seer and says "X is a wolf, lynch him" and we listen to him/her, then soon we will know whether he/she is lying or not...

Such has ever been the case. It is for those Gifteds to guard themselves and their knowledge well, and not to be drawn out by the words of the false.

[Nogrod]

I was already letting my paranoic-self loose while listening to our Jeweler here saying how easy it would be to get rid of the cobbler - so something like a masterplan in the works from the get-go?

But as I went checking back into the rules to find out whether my idea was right and the cobbler doesn't know the identity of the wolves (which would mean a cobbler might falsely reveal and hit a wolf thus making us believe her/him for a moment - the problem being it could draw our seer into the open earlier s/he wanted), I actually stumbled on a more important issue I had forgotten.

The seer gets the identity of the cobbler this time for sure - so by playing the "revealment-card" the cobbler can at best distract us for one lynching (or another if the seer is really cold-blooded and thinks it wise in the general balance of the game), but s/he will be known to be the cobbler by the seer the next Night - which should hold the cobbler's willingness in check to try and meddle in that way...

It doesn't take away the chance the cobbler might fool us for one Day, but it will sure mean the cobbler will ensure s/he will walk to the gallows pretty soon if s/he's trying to pull out that kind of trick. I mean in a basic scenario, an ordinary elf could try to do the trick to save the seer and we'd be insecure if the seer just later said s/he is "an innocent". But in this game the cobbler will be seen as a cobbler by the seer.

So in the end I tend to agree with our Jeweler of Amon Lanc that the cobbler isn't that much of a threat (until the end of the game of course, if alive that is) - or someone we should try to go for in the first Days as our main target. So let's keep the wolves as our main targets and not get distracted with the cobbler-talk. I'm okay with lynching the cobbler anytime we have good reasons to believe someone is the cobbler and we have no idea who the wolves are - but on other situations, like having some credible suspicions on wolvery, especially early in the game, let's stick to hunting the wolves.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How about everyone just uncloaked and we could be done with it by judging on the hairyness of everyone...

Indeed, I marvel at your audacity in suggesting such a thing, Master Nogrod. Holy Elbereth, there are ladies among us, and one of them a young maiden! Have you no decency?

Originally Posted by Legate

If there is anything that troubles me now, it is the selection of people, because basically all of you, my friends, are the ones I consider of the most bold and clever, in one way or another, and I would not like any of you to be on the side of evil...

Flattery will get you nowhere.

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences. Now as you are no doubt aware, the best way for such a fake claimant to fool us would be to sacrifice a real wolf in order to gain our trust, and the cobbler is in no position to do that, even if they were willing to, being as much in the dark as to the wolves' identity as we are. They might, of course, get a wolf lynched by mistake, deeming said wolf innocent, but then that would ill save the evil side. Therefore I don't think the danger of a cobbler fake-revealing very high, considering all sides. A wolf doing it, however, would be quite a different matter, as they could use their knowledge of who is furry and who isn't to lend credibility to their pretended dreams.

On the other hand, the cobbler, or a wolf, might still risk it in the hope to thus draw out the true Seer for the wolves to kill, as you seem to be considering here:

Originally Posted by Legate

so if this happened, the contested Seer or whoever should be careful about it and judge for him/herself whether it is wise to contest the fake-Seer's claim or not at that point...

This is a two-edged blade. A false claim that is uncontested for too long and not disproven by mislynchings might be believed over a delayed counter-reveal... I think there are precedences to that in the histories, too. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our
Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

(x-ed with Zil and Nogrod)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The seer gets the identity of the cobbler this time for sure - so by playing the "revealment-card" the cobbler can at best distract us for one lynching (or another if the seer is really cold-blooded and thinks it wise in the general balance of the game), but s/he will be known to be the cobbler by the seer the next Night - which should hold the cobbler's willingness in check to try and meddle in that way...

It doesn't take away the chance the cobbler might fool us for one Day, but it will sure mean the cobbler will ensure s/he will walk to the gallows pretty soon if s/he's trying to pull out that kind of trick. I mean in a basic scenario, an ordinary elf could try to do the trick to save the seer and we'd be insecure if the seer just later said s/he is "an innocent". But in this game the cobbler will be seen as a cobbler by the seer.

That is indeed true! Well good to have realised that. This way, the cobbler-threat gets a lot smaller, although still of course we should not dismiss it... but yes, well. This also answers dear our dear Pitchfurrier's doubts (at least those concerning Cobblers - I definitely share his concerns about the uncloaking plan!)... my concern was just general, knowing such things might occur. Of course, if a fake-Gifted proved to be a nuisance, there would have been the need for radical turn, but fortunately indeed, the Seer can always dream of him/her. Even if it meant losing a Night of when he/she could have dreamed of a real Wolf - but I think it would depend on the situation whether it's affordable or not, and anyway, a person going around and saying he or she is the Seer should not be left unchecked, just for the sake of the village. And he/she might even be a Wolf him/herself, and not just a Cobbler (that is also one very, very important point to bear in mind!). Anyway, I guess the conclusion is: if somebody comes out claiming that he or she is something and is not, then the real person should not be too hasty, hum hom, as one of my very, very, very old friends used to say...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

I am saying, I believe, quite obvious, or easily recognisable things, but then, it is not so obvious, and just in case... and also, like I said, it's Day 1. We don't have any lead to start with, we should stir some discussion. So let's do it, so that by the end of the Day we can have some idea whom to vote...

It's true, you are, and this very trait is what led me to think you evil when last we met. However, given that you've said that you're stirring up the rest of us here... I believe I'm okay with you, for now, Legate.

In other news, I'm finding something slightly off about Pitch. He's only made one post thus far, but as I read it there were points at which I felt he was being awfully... well, the pun is inevitable... agreeable.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Right on spot Pitch. I paused at that while reading but got carried away by the cobbler-speculation... (but it did feed to my paranoia at the first read) The wolves will try to be nice and friendly. The innocents will be brutal and openly attacking people (hopefully). The wolves would love "friendliness-based lottery" of votes, while we innocents need to find out who the honey-tongued villains are.

Although I'm not too sure that quote merits as a reason to suspect Legate as you could read it as an IC comment as well.

Originally Posted by Pitchie

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences.

It depends on what is the definition of a "succesful false reveal". The cobblers - or wolves - doing a false reveal tend to die rather quick, but sometimes they have carried the game by that one or two Day delay they manage to create... So it is a real possibility, and a real threat.

Originally Posted by Pitchie

But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

As I said earlier, let's go for any signs of wolvery for now, toDay, toMorrow... if we get a good hunch on a cobbler and if we are totally baffled with the wolves, let's then try to lynch the cobbler (it might be a wolf trying to act like a cobbler as well, not an unheard of scenario either).

It is good to note all suspicious acting - but that of the gifteds (there are such a number of sad examples). The gifteds should stay calm...

EDIT: X'd with Legate & Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It depends on what is the definition of a "succesful false reveal". The cobblers - or wolves - doing a false reveal tend to die rather quick, but sometimes they have carried the game by that one or two Day delay they manage to create... So it is a real possibility, and a real threat.

Oh, I can think of one off the top of my head... isn't that right, Boromir88?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I was already letting my paranoic-self loose while listening to our Jeweler here saying how easy it would be to get rid of the cobbler - so something like a masterplan in the works from the get-go?

Sorry, I somehow completely fail to see where, in the speech of his you're replying to here, Legate said anything about a masterplan to get rid of the cobbler, or the easiness thereof, and what about that would make you paranoic. Care to enlighten me?

Unfortunately, dear friends, the time has come for me now to seek such sleep as may be found in this foul dungeon, and it will be a while ere I'll be able to rejoin the discourse. May the Valar aid you in your search for truth!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Right on spot Pitch. I paused at that while reading but got carried away by the cobbler-speculation... (but it did feed to my paranoia at the first read) The wolves will try to be nice and friendly. The innocents will be brutal and openly attacking people (hopefully). The wolves would love "friendliness-based lottery" of votes, while we innocents need to find out who the honey-tongued villains are.

Although I'm not too sure that quote merits as a reason to suspect Legate as you could read it as an IC comment as well.

It was partially in-character, but it was also stating the truth, although it was rather random: just if I put it in other words, the list of players does not look encouraging - in these numbers, whichever way the Wolf-team is built, there definitely is somebody really nasty, and I think we only miss the Saucepan Man and Roa for the fray.

As I said earlier, let's go for any signs of wolvery for now, toDay, toMorrow... if we get a good hunch on a cobbler and if we are totally baffled with the wolves, let's then try to lynch the cobbler (it might be a wolf trying to act like a cobbler as well, not an unheard of scenario either).

I am definitely for going for Wolves in general. And I think nobody ever said anything about going after a Cobbler. Cobbler should be ignored, ignored, ignored (as one Red Elf once used to say), but the point was to make sure the Gifteds don't do, hum hom, anything hasty.

EDIT: crossposted with Shasta and Pitch
EDITEDIT: And since I just looked at the clock and became horrified by the vision of the length of my sleep, I shall leave ye too... see you later...

[Nerwen]

Nerwen, as was her habit in idle moments, reached automatically for her knife so that she might do some carving, before remembering that their weapons had been taken from them, and that here there was no wood for her to whittle into the shape of soaring eagles or running stags. Without anything to occupy them, her hands felt strangely empty.

Master Nogrod had chided her many times for her inability to keep still– a serious defect in a Hunter. Now, unable to contain her restlessness, she rose and paced up and down the dank stone cell, thanking any Power that might still be looking out for the hapless Noldor that the cruel Sorcerer had, so far, neglected to chain them to the wall. That was something.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for the matter of fake reveals which you broach there, I have yet to witness such an attempt being made successfully, but historical chronicles do mention precedences. Now as you are no doubt aware, the best way for such a fake claimant to fool us would be to sacrifice a real wolf in order to gain our trust, and the cobbler is in no position to do that, even if they were willing to, being as much in the dark as to the wolves' identity as we are. They might, of course, get a wolf lynched by mistake, deeming said wolf innocent, but then that would ill save the evil side. Therefore I don't think the danger of a cobbler fake-revealing very high, considering all sides. A wolf doing it, however, would be quite a different matter, as they could use their knowledge of who is furry and who isn't to lend credibility to their pretended dreams.

You seem to assume that this "Cobbler" person– how terrible to think there's treachery among us! Though, perhaps, hardly surprising. *sigh* It seems the Doom of Mandos will dog our people to the end of days... –Where was I? Oh yes. You seem to assume that the traitor, not to mention those of us whose souls have been taken by the accursed Lord of Wolves, would reveal only as the Seer. Why should that be?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am definitely for going for Wolves in general. And I think nobody ever said anything about going after a Cobbler. Cobbler should be ignored, ignored, ignored (as one Red Elf once used to say), but the point was to make sure the Gifteds don't do, hum hom, anything hasty.

Nay, for this traitor may yet be a great help to the wolves in the end.

EDIT: typo.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nay, for this traitor may yet be a great help to the wolves in the end.

Indeed, yes, Nerwen. The traitor ought not be our greatest concern, but ignored? That would be unwise.

[Loslote]

I do believe I shall display the traditional youth's habit of sleeping in for remarkable lengths of time...and hopefully (*crosses fingers*) the traditional youth's habit of being awake late into the evening.

As for the Cobbler, I'd say ignore xem for now. If they want to false reveal, let them have fun, and then let them go "oh. Right. I'm dead now". Other than false revealing, I don't think they'll be all that much trouble until later on, so using up a lynch on them wouldn't be the best option.

Besides, how else are we going to make sure Boro's a wolf than letting him kill off the Cobbler during the Night?

[wilwarin538]

A Cobbler that doesn't know who the wolves are and can be detected by the Seer is really not that huge of a threat, until the end of the game when their vote can do harm. So I'm not overly concerned about them at the moment. Hopefully the wolves get him, I always love it when that happens.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It depends on what is the definition of a "succesful false reveal". The cobblers - or wolves - doing a false reveal tend to die rather quick, but sometimes they have carried the game by that one or two Day delay they manage to create... So it is a real possibility, and a real threat.

A false reveal could potentially even end up helping us. I remember my only game as a cobbler I false revealed as the ranger and ended up accidently giving away who a wolf was and helping the village win. But I suppose that's a rare occurence...

And about reveals in general. I think the only time a Seer should reveal are the following: a) they have a wolf, b) they are in danger of being lynched and have info and have not left any useful hints, or c) close to the end of the game, where even known innocents could come in handy. A time that the Seer should not reveal: a) when someone false reveals, since it'll be obvious they're lying eventually, so please don't give yourself away or b) just for the fun of it.

I'm ok with a Ranger reveal if they are in danger of being lynched, and pretty much only then. I'm never ok with a Hunter reveal, since that defeats the whole purpose of the role, being that death is when they do their special thing, and since an innocent can't die with them when they are lynched (right?) then risk of lynch is not a valid reason to reveal. That's just my opinion.

Anyway, off to bed. I should be on randomly in the morning. I have a dentist appointment that ends very close to DL, so I may vote early just to be on the safe side.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Wilwa

and since an innocent can't die with them when they are lynched (right?) then risk of lynch is not a valid reason to reveal.

Wrong. The Hunter takes their current pick to the grave with them if lynched, regardless of alignment.

Will comment on others momentarily.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wrong. The Hunter takes their current pick to the grave with them if lynched, regardless of alignment.

Her point still stands, though - the Hunter should not reveal. Well, except for that one time with Mira, but that was special (and annoying! ).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, I entirely agree with Nerwen on the subject of the cobbler, and disagree with Legate - in no instance should the cobbler be 'ignored' (except of course in the case of a revealed cobbler, in which case we should 'ignore' everything they say should we not choose to lynch them immediately).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Her point still stands, though - the Hunter should not reveal. Well, except for that one time with Mira, but that was special (and annoying! ).

Noted, I was just clarifying.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Lottie

Other than false revealing, I don't think they'll be all that much trouble until later on, so using up a lynch on them wouldn't be the best option.

Fair enough. But should we have suspicion, I believe that it would be in the best interest for all of us to be rid of them. Of course, finding the Wolves is our main priority, but should we happen upon the Cobbler, even if it is early in the game, I think we should be rid of the nuisance. I've seen first hand (and in person ) how dangerous a false reveal late in the game can be.

[Boromir88]

How can you all jibber-jabber so much so quickly. Everyone's posting such long long paragraphs. *sigh*

The only thing I read after my post (since I just scanned the page for bolded Boro's)

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Oh, I can think of one off the top of my head... isn't that right, Boromir88?

I can think of more!

Guess I should read all the text that isn't bolded Boro's, eh.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Boro

How can you all jibber-jabber so much so quickly. Everyone's posting such long long paragraphs. *sigh*

And you had to go and ruin it! Now everyone's completely silent.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And you had to go and ruin it! Now everyone's completely silent.

Hem, hem...

Anywho, first impressions (because it's too quiet! ):

Shasta: Evil wolfykins...

Zil: I...I think you're okie...

Legate: ...good boy?

Pitchie: Oh so dis-Agreeable!

Nogrod: Scandalously non-evil! And just plain scandalous...

Boro: Can't skim for his own name properly. So possily non-ebil...

Glirdy: I doesn't suspect him, precious.

And I have no read on the girls. At all.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It doesn't take away the chance the cobbler might fool us for one Day, but it will sure mean the cobbler will ensure s/he will walk to the gallows pretty soon if s/he's trying to pull out that kind of trick. I mean in a basic scenario, an ordinary elf could try to do the trick to save the seer and we'd be insecure if the seer just later said s/he is "an innocent". But in this game the cobbler will be seen as a cobbler by the seer.

Originally Posted by Legate

Of course, if a fake-Gifted proved to be a nuisance, there would have been the need for radical turn, but fortunately indeed, the Seer can always dream of him/her.

As for the Cobbler, I'd say ignore xem for now. If they want to false reveal, let them have fun, and then let them go "oh. Right. I'm dead now". Other than false revealing, I don't think they'll be all that much trouble until later on, so using up a lynch on them wouldn't be the best option.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

A Cobbler that doesn't know who the wolves are and can be detected by the Seer is really not that huge of a threat, until the end of the game when their vote can do harm.

Nerwen replied with her usual impatience:

"Look, my friends. you're thinking about this all wrong. Yes, even Master Nogrod– with all due respect.

'Question: what will the Seer do if she dreams the traitor early on?
Answer: Nothing.

'At least, she might encourage the rest of us to attack him– or not, depending on whether we seem likely to get an actual wolf at the time– but she certainly won't reveal just to get him; neither can he lead her to any wolves. Thus, false-revealing by the traitor is more of a risk than the rest of you seem to think."

EDIT:X'd with Lottie and Glirdan.

[Glirdan]

I think miss Lottie is a wolfykins for making a day 1 list

EDIT: Spelling

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I think miss Lottie is a wolfykins for making a day 1 list

Aww, nuts, caught me again!

Really, though, not liking Shasta. Too non-confrontational, and the way he words this especially:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wrong. The Hunter takes their current pick to the grave with them if lynched, regardless of alignment.

Will comment on others momentarily.

Makes me a bit worried.

Of course, when he's a wolf, I can never tell, so he's probably innocent anyway. Best I've got so far as far as suspicion goes, though.

[Glirdan]

Well, I'm off for now. I may sneak on in the next few hours if I don't fall asleep. If I do fall asleep, I'll be on a few hours before DL.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Lottie - That's silly. I clarified a rule for Wilwa. What about that should be worrying? I'll give you a hint - the answer's 'nothing'. And as for being 'nonconfrontational' - I was the first to evidence actual suspicion of a specific person (Pitch, to be precise), so I don't really know where you're getting 'nonconfrontational' from.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Lottie - That's silly. I clarified a rule for Wilwa. What about that should be worrying? I'll give you a hint - the answer's 'nothing'. And as for being 'nonconfrontational' - I was the first to evidence actual suspicion of a specific person (Pitch, to be precise), so I don't really know where you're getting 'nonconfrontational' from.

Like I said, it's early in Day 1, and I'm probably wrong anyway. Total gut feeling, and I was trying to describe why...I'm hardly saying you're without question evil, just that you're my top (and only, really) suspect. As for your response, it sounds like the Wolf!Shastas I've seen before - really aggressive. As for the suspicion, you included a with it, so I didn't really pay much attention to that.

Repeat: Not solid proof that you're evil. Not even close. Complete gut feeling - but I don't trust you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Like I said, it's early in Day 1, and I'm probably wrong anyway. Total gut feeling, and I was trying to describe why...I'm hardly saying you're without question evil, just that you're my top (and only, really) suspect. As for your response, it sounds like the Wolf!Shastas I've seen before - really aggressive. As for the suspicion, you included a with it, so I didn't really pay much attention to that.

Repeat: Not solid proof that you're evil. Not even close. Complete gut feeling - but I don't trust you.

Fair enough, but you don't get to call me 'nonconfrontational' in one breath and then 'aggressive' in the next. It doesn't work like that.

In any case, I'm least okay with Pitch at the moment and most okay with Nerwen (mostly for her views on the cobbler). I'm going to try and sleep now - although I don't hold out too much hope considering the dark dankness of this cell.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Fair enough, but you don't get to call me 'nonconfrontational' in one breath and then 'aggressive' in the next. It doesn't work like that.

Aggressively nonconfrontational? You don't think so?

Actually, I meant to call your response post aggressive, and the posts before that nonconfrontational. Sort of careful, then switch to defensively aggressive, that sort of thing...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now we are starting to talk, which is funny and at least starting to give some ideas of what people are like. My initial feeling is the best about wilwa, because all she says is reasonable and at the same time a thing I believe Wolves would not just say randomly, like, not the sort of "fake wisdom" Wolves often use to seem reasonable.

The last exchange between Shasta and Lottie made me curious a bit, I wouldn't have thought Shasta strange by himself, but the way Lottie pointed it out seems rather weird - but Shasta's reaction likewise. His reaction was a bit, well, aggressive? To such a minor thing (or so it would seem). But the funniest part was Lottie's backing away after that. And the sort of repetitive "I think you are suspicious, BUT in fact I do not", which immediately made me think of Wolf-on-Wolf accusations, which are just a theatre for us... Not to say that Shasta's initial suspicion of Pitch could well be a simple random accusation made by a Wolf in order to have some good person to vote for toDay...

Well it's too early for any good suspicions, but this just raised my attention. As with everything, noting this down and looking forward to see how the Day continues, especially from the two...

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Also, I entirely agree with Nerwen on the subject of the cobbler, and disagree with Legate - in no instance should the cobbler be 'ignored' (except of course in the case of a revealed cobbler, in which case we should 'ignore' everything they say should we not choose to lynch them immediately).

I knew there will be a discussion about this, simply because people have different opinions on this. Even considering what Nerwen said, I believe the Cobbler is not a threat. It can be so on some late Day, when there are few people left and he/she can vote with the Wolves to get rid of the villagers... Although okay, we are quite a small village here... hmm, I would have to count. Okay, I submit, maybe you are right and particularly in this village we should not ignore them for too long, but still, in the first Days it should not be our concern. And anyway, even in the later ones - I mean, we should look for WWs, not for Cobbler - once there are no WWs, the Cobbler has lost as well. So, still, I prefer to leave the Cobbler mostly because they tend to get themselves lynched pretty soon, usually, by themselves, because they just make a mess and thus, you can spot them. In any case, if you see somebody behaves suspiciously, you won't be able to say whether it's a Cobbler or not - or not necessarily (and it can be a Wolf faking to be a Cobbler etc.), so basically you vote for the person whoever it is, and learn their role once they hang, gibbets and crows, dotard, oh no, too bad, I guess we don't have any gibbets here in this dungeon and I think this wasn't my line anyway...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

How can you all jibber-jabber so much so quickly. Everyone's posting such long long paragraphs. *sigh*

The only thing I read after my post (since I just scanned the page for bolded Boro's)



I can think of more!

Guess I should read all the text that isn't bolded Boro's, eh.

Just to make you read this post And you hypocrite, don't pretend to make short posts just now, just wait when you get into some argument...

Gotta go now, will be around again...

EDIT: x-posted with Lottie

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The last exchange between Shasta and Lottie made me curious a bit, I wouldn't have thought Shasta strange by himself, but the way Lottie pointed it out seems rather weird - but Shasta's reaction likewise. His reaction was a bit, well, aggressive? To such a minor thing (or so it would seem). But the funniest part was Lottie's backing away after that. And the sort of repetitive "I think you are suspicious, BUT in fact I do not", which immediately made me think of Wolf-on-Wolf accusations, which are just a theatre for us...

I do suspect him. He's my only suspicion so far. But it's Day 1, and I have a rather extensive history of being very, very wrong and not letting go of that suspicion. So I've started trying not to 'witch-hunt' early on...

Anyway, I really have to go to sleep now. I'll be back...before DL...for a bit...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Legate

The last exchange between Shasta and Lottie made me curious a bit, I wouldn't have thought Shasta strange by himself, but the way Lottie pointed it out seems rather weird - but Shasta's reaction likewise. His reaction was a bit, well, aggressive? To such a minor thing (or so it would seem). But the funniest part was Lottie's backing away after that. And the sort of repetitive "I think you are suspicious, BUT in fact I do not", which immediately made me think of Wolf-on-Wolf accusations, which are just a theatre for us... Not to say that Shasta's initial suspicion of Pitch could well be a simple random accusation made by a Wolf in order to have some good person to vote for toDay...

I had actually been thinking about that while trying to fall asleep (made difficult by this lovely cold I seem to have ) and was just coming on to voice that and noticed you beat me to it.

But I am glad that I am not the only one who's initial thought was Wolf-on-Wolf. Shasta's defensive aggressive response to Lottie aside, their whole conversation is giving off an almost banter kind of vibe, especially after Shasta's response.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I do suspect him. He's my only suspicion so far. But it's Day 1, and I have a rather extensive history of being very, very wrong and not letting go of that suspicion. So I've started trying not to 'witch-hunt' early on...

And yet I've seen you go two games in a row and peg the Wolves based of IC posts and go on and lynch them to help win the game for the village....I seem to remember being one of those lynchee's actually

EDIT: Going to attempt sleep again...if I can't, well, I may post again within the next three hours or so

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So, still, I prefer to leave the Cobbler mostly because they tend to get themselves lynched pretty soon, usually, by themselves, because they just make a mess and thus, you can spot them. In any case, if you see somebody behaves suspiciously, you won't be able to say whether it's a Cobbler or not - or not necessarily (and it can be a Wolf faking to be a Cobbler etc.), so basically you vote for the person whoever it is, and learn their role once they hang, gibbets and crows, dotard, oh no, too bad, I guess we don't have any gibbets here in this dungeon and I think this wasn't my line anyway...

Oh we'll find a way. We Noldor are ingenious. And I'm agreed that we should concentrate on finding the wolves. Just as long as we don't end up giving anyone a free pass for being a (supposed) "known traitor", and therefore "harmless". The annals tell us this has often proved unwise.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

But I am glad that I am not the only one who's initial thought was Wolf-on-Wolf. Shasta's defensive aggressive response to Lottie aside, their whole conversation is giving off an almost banter kind of vibe, especially after Shasta's response.

I'll third that. Note that it's not even clear why he's her top suspect– at least, this is the closest she gives to an explanation:

Originally Posted by Lottie

Actually, I meant to call your response post aggressive, and the posts before that nonconfrontational. Sort of careful, then switch to defensively aggressive, that sort of thing...

Which I think sounds awfully calculating. And then, the way she backs right off from suspecting him... it looks contrived. I can think of explanations other than Wolf-on-wolf, though. Cobbler testing the waters, for example.

[A Little Green]

A quick comment on the Day so far before dashing off again. First - I find it amusing that people keep saying the wolves are our top priority, and yet the main topic of discussion is the cobbler. Like, the cobbler is distracting the village already, and it's actually possible they haven't been around yet at all! Though of course it's pretty boring and unfruitful to start the Day with everyone echoing "We need to kill the wolves!" But still, I wouldn't be surprised if our cobbler was in fact one of those keeping up the debate about how to deal with the cobbler.

Another thing: the exchange between Lottie and Shasta. Possible scenarios:
a) Lottiewolf relying on "gut-feeling" to justify easy suspicion on an innocent Shasta. I don't find this that likely, though it's definitely a possibility. Lottie's tone is quite genuine, and if she's a wolf I'd be more inclined to think Shasta is one too (= option d)).
b) Innocent Lottie getting her famous gut-feeling on a Shastawolf. Definitely possible.
c) Innocent Lottie getting her famous gut-feeling on an innocent Shasta. Definitely possible.
d) Lottiewolf and Shastawolf mess around with a neat Day 1 wolf-on-wolf show. Certainly wouldn't put it past the two of them.


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wrong. The Hunter takes their current pick to the grave with them if lynched, regardless of alignment.

Will comment on others momentarily.

Oh, you're right, I got it backwards, anyone can die with them in a lynch, but only a wolf during the night. Still though, a revealed hunter is less likely to be night killed, and then what good are they? Just saying, strongly opposed.

Anyway, be back when I am more fully awake.