Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:

None of it was meant seriously in the sense that we must do one of these three things and it all involves tp. No one has to do anything about him, they can carry on business and ignore him entirely. The thing is, he makes it rather impossible to ignore, this is a fact I've come to accept over the years. So a sparknotes page of my post looks something like this...

Do I*

1. Help phantom get absolute power
2. Nullify his power by being an equal force that acts opposite of his desires
3. Remove his existance from this world

*Yes I used "we" that is because I always presume to be speaking for the conglomerate, but everyone should know they can do whatever they darn well please.

The 1-3 is more to be taken lightly to how when phantom's dishonoured everyone by his very presense, no matter what we do, he's going to be the attention. And I remain futilely optimistic about one day this not being the case.

What can be taken from it though, is I will unleash war upon phantom (or vote for people who will do it with me) if he tries something entirely unreasonable. Which counter to Lottie's own high-esteemed opinion of him, he is very capable of doing.

Edit: crossed with Greenie

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Legate

But I would like to ask, how am I supposed to play since TP already used half of the good quotes before I even had the chance.

Ha ha, yes, the first quote I thought of without prompting and decided to use it, but once I started typing I recalled that you had been heavy with SW quotes last time and so I resolved to use a couple more just because of that. I wondered if you'd be amused or if you'd be angry that I'd stolen your show.

Originally Posted by Legate

While having a topic to start with is better than bumping in the dark (sic), and I am sure it makes TP happy to have all the Day for himself, not sure if the way things have been focused on is the best to do it. But at the same time, it is at least a good topic for the start - and with such a topic, the way of people's behavior might nicely begin to show in people's reactions

Exactly! You know all of the old complaints about Day 1, and generally I always try and do something or other on the first day to prod discussion. I'd say it's working to some extent, in the sense that there are posts that say something other than, "Um, I'm here". I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Originally Posted by Legate

Okay, this is the one thing I really dislike - that's basically blackmail. It effectively means that "if you don't vote me, look, look, everyone else will do it, and then I will lynch you, because you will be the last remaining one".

You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

(more responses to follow)

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Boro

*bows* Glad I could make someone's day...I'm a dead orc walking for that!

So true

EDIT: X-ed with Foley

[the phantom]

Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I really can't think of anything more stupid than carelessly giving your rep vote away in the beginning of the Day to vote some guy with terribly inflated ego just because he loves the attention.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't honestly understand why anyone - innocent or guilty - would throw away their rep vote so carelessly for somebody whose alignment they have no idea of (probably).

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

You do recall the last time we had one of these rep games, don't you? Given my track record, I'm the most sane voting choice there is.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune

I am not evil! I am just a very serious case of negative social inheritance!

If you're not evil, I can only assume you're a SoE. Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Rune

Lommy I really like. She is annoyed, bitter and straightforward, very unusual for her and I like it. It is like we have a new and improved Lommy.

What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)

Originally Posted by Nog

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

Oh, I'm quite aware of the game I'm playing. And if they decide to play it, the better for me, as I like my chances of spotting them better when they're forced to play my game.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

The only way to find out what I'd do in that situation is to make it happen, m'dear. Aren't you curious? Oh, and I think it goes without saying that I knew good and well not everyone would vote for me. I can always count on Lommy for things like that.

Originally Posted by Legate

I could also remark that I find it funny, though, how since several of the posts which pointed out the danger of having all votes for phantom, and especially after Lommy's rather strongly frustrated post, the "public thinking" sort of shifted towards the same paradigm of echoing it - like Inzil or Glirdan (and even Rune, with what I mentioned above). Since it became a "fashion", I expect that now it is easier for the SoE to join this "fashion", and not support phantom any more.

Yes, yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I try to create in stirring the pot! Behaviors to look for etc. My primary regret at this point was that there were fewer supporters around early on to give this thing more steam so as to make reactions more pronounced when the tide turned.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am going to correct my statements from above a bit - he is back and he is somewhat annoying. But okay, whatever. My decision now is more like, this is about the good way, phantom has some votes, so he can be a rep, why not, as long as there are several others to balance him - in Czech we have the proverb "the wolf had its meal but the goat remained whole", which is the optimal state of things. I am probably really not voting him, and I think the votes he has now are about okay amount.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ha ha, yes, the first quote I thought of without prompting and decided to use it, but once I started typing I recalled that you had been heavy with SW quotes last time and so I resolved to use a couple more just because of that. I wondered if you'd be amused or if you'd be angry that I'd stolen your show.

No worry. It was amusing, the only downside was that I couldn't use them, but I can live with it.

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie and Foley

[Folwren]

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not. Phantom, I'm curious - are you going to be at all flattered when you become a rep only because people voted for you without thinking?

I'm about to head home...won't have internet for a few hours...then I'll get it again briefly when I go to my folks' place for dinner and some evening stuff.

I am still leaning towards voting for Nerwen.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let's not keep up this "representatives are tp and the force to counterbalance him" -stuff any more.

Let's see tp being one of the many representatives where his power is like one sixth or seventh of the total - and that's it. Please.

This is the only time I said anything about "counterbalancing phantom", and that was only because I was using Boro's rhetorics. And that said, I believe I was the first one to speak about many representatives and the advantages of democracy, thank you, so no worries.

And although I am not happy with what just happened *glances at Mira*, three votes are nothing. Unless there are more mad people around, which I hope not. See also what I said above.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I am still leaning towards voting for Nerwen.

If it is so, then I might vote somebody else - I am fine with Nerwen getting two votes, and I could use my vote then for somebody else from my many options.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro and onwards

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not. Phantom, I'm curious - are you going to be at all flattered when you become a rep only because people voted for you without thinking?

Why actually I wasn't. Which I made perfectly clear in my first post of the day.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign.

You know better than this, Boro. To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day. And also, it fed in nicely to the underlying motive which was simply to create discussion and get the ball rolling.

And your whole power speech is bunk as well, since you know good and well what sort of chap I truly am when it comes to these sorts of things. I'm in this to win. Desire for acclaim or power has never clouded my judgement when there was an actual decision to be made.

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day.

Erm.. understanding? Could you elaborate, please: how does it show understanding to make a rep vote in the first few posts of the Day, before anything has been said and before you can have any legitimate opinions on anyone's guilt/innocence (unless you really can't be around later, which doesn't seem to have been the case with either Sally or Lottie)?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

I'd be inclined to believe that Lommy knows that no one knows the others' alignment as yet. She was probably referring to Sally and Lottie rep-voting before anything had happened ie. when they had even no inkling as to what your role could be

Originally Posted by Folwren

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that.

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right? Not to mention, most of the people throwing suspicion around right now are doing so based upon the early voting and reactions to it! If everyone followed your advice (and not voted), we'd be back at square one as far as suspicions!

So, you want people to wait and not do anything until they have a hunch, but how can anyone get a hunch if no one has done anything yet? Have I explained properly where I'm coming from here?

On Day 1 in particular, some people have to just take a flying leap and do something! And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him. Not to mention the fact that the SoE wish to control the vote, and so it's completely possible that they will look like the best candidates if you wait around!! Meaning that your best chance of not voting for a SoE is to vote completely on a random whim and let the simple percentages dictate if you're right or not!

(x-post with a few- Greenie, your last post I basically address in this post, the "understanding" being that perhaps Sally and Lottie know that maybe they should just take a leap)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Not to mention the fact that the SoE wish to control the vote, and so it's completely possible that they will look like the best candidates if you wait around!! Meaning that your best chance of not voting for a SoE is to vote completely on a random whim and let the simple percentages dictate if you're right or not!

I do think we'd like to see the SoE's as representatives at least at the early stages of the game - not so much so in the decisive Day when we either win or lose, naturally.

I don't remember how exactly the last representatives-game went (and have no time to go and check - someone with a lot of time in hands could actually do that), but I can predict that the representatives will be under the looking-glass on D2 and it will require some really odd things to happen if the next lynch is on someone who was not a representative toDay.

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role...

EDIT: Triple posting... hey, where are you when I have time? I'll be back in a while.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

On Day 1 in particular, some people have to just take a flying leap and do something! And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him. Not to mention the fact that the SoE wish to control the vote, and so it's completely possible that they will look like the best candidates if you wait around!! Meaning that your best chance of not voting for a SoE is to vote completely on a random whim and let the simple percentages dictate if you're right or not!

So it's good to vote randomly because having an SoE as a rep this early is useful later, but also because you're less likely to get one?

[wilwarin538]

Ok, so I *was* reading everything, but then I started to space out and began skimming a bit so that I could post before I get too distracted (those videos didn't help). But I think I got the basic idea of what's going on.

This is my first representative game, and it's very possible that my brain isn't totally understanding it, but from what I can see the best way to do it would be for us to not give anyone more than 2 votes, right? Cause once they have 2 votes they're a representative, and if they get more than they start gaining more power. Well I don't like the idea of just a couple people having a lot of power (and maybe a couple amoung them having even more). I'd rather have half the people have all the same amount of power. That gives us more stuff to analyse, and makes it harder for the SoE to get too much power (unless, like all 4 of them get voted as representative, but at least if they don't have more pull than the other reps it wouldn't be so bad). Did that make any sense?

Anyway, my point. Phantom is a rep now, nobody else vote for him. These caves are small enough already, I'd rather not have his ego take up even more room.

So then for the rest of this half of the Day, once someone has 2 votes nobody else should vote for them, that way about half the (what do you call a group of Orcs? A clan of orcs? A gaggle of orcs? A grunt of orcs?), uhm, half the 'village' will be representatives, and it will make the voting process much more interesting, rather than have like 5 people with various amounts of power, that makes me uneasy. Does that seem fair, or am I missing something (like I said, never played a rep game before).

I'm going to go eat something to kick start my brain back up and I'll come back when I'm in better control of my attention span. *sees a butterfly, chases after it*

*runs back for a second* Oh, and this:

Originally Posted by Boro

All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

I might vote Boro as rep just for saying this.

x'ed with this whole page

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

This is my first representative game, and it's very possible that my brain isn't totally understanding it, but from what I can see the best way to do it would be for us to not give anyone more than 2 votes, right? Cause once they have 2 votes they're a representative, and if they get more than they start gaining more power. Well I don't like the idea of just a couple people having a lot of power (and maybe a couple amoung them having even more). I'd rather have half the people have all the same amount of power. That gives us more stuff to analyse, and makes it harder for the SoE to get too much power (unless, like all 4 of them get voted as representative, but at least if they don't have more pull than the other reps it wouldn't be so bad). Did that make any sense?

It does, but then what's the point of having representatives if you're just effectively shrinking the village to half its size?

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It does, but then what's the point of having representatives if you're just effectively shrinking the village to half its size?

Well, it's just better than putting all the power in the hands of like 3 people. And the more votes there are, and the more spread out they are for different people, the more information we'll have. If everyone today voted for only 3 people, then when the second half of the Day starts those 3 people would not have a lot to go on, and than the following day when we want to look at reps we'd only have 3 people to look at, and since everyone will have voted the same the day before than that's not a lot of info.

Anyway, my point, more information the better, easier to find patterns and connections between people, so the more reps the more info, etc etc.

Right now I will likely vote for one of: Nog, Lommy, Boro, Legate or Greenie. Because they're shiny, and I agree with them mostly, and I think they'd be very smart voters. Though having some quieter ones would be great too, so Nerwen and Izzy would be good choices, and Inzil. Hmm....I'll probably wait til closer til DL (since I will definetely be around then).

x'ed with one of the lovely Modesses

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Lommy- your reaction is completely silly.

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that. You and Sally treat Day 1 as though it were a perfect waste, and Lommy treats it as though it were not, and you bash her for it. Sir, we may all be 'evil orcs' but I'm getting a feeling that you're more evil than the rest of us, because you're willing to trample on people and their ideas.

[Inzil] agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

But it IS clear-cut, Phantom. People should wait and let their ignorance be enlightened if at all possible before voting.
And he IS right about not voting in ignorance. Absolutely he's right. To not vote is idiotic, but to vote blindly and out of ignorance is even worse.

--

Ex-posted with Greenie, Phantom, and Legate.

[Inziladun]

Very pressed for time, but a few quick things:

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

I don't know about a 'sneaky liar', but the mere fact of being the phantom merits distrust for him.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

This is pretty sensible. Boro for rep? Hmm.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

This is a good point as well. I don't really think tp should be lynched just for his actics, which certainly have an ulterior motive. Whether that motive is evil or good though is the unknown. I just don't want him, or anyone, having a disproportionate slice of power.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

I didn't suggest not voting as a practice, but I find it preferable to making a random one without examining as many people as possible. And I also said anyone not voting should be held accountable and made to explain.

[Nogrod]

Back and reading... just thought that this is important enough to say right now in plain terms.

We need a lot of representatives: not one, not two or three!

I'd almost venture as far as to say the more we have the better. The representatives need to make the decisions for lynching people and if we have only a few there's little to read. So let's not get carried away with this "who votes for who" as a representative, but how do we get enough reps for us to read later on.

And remember, many wolves might also wish to stay out of the fray and not want to get elected as the reps will receive the toughest scrutiny on D2.

Just saying.

[Nogrod]

Done reading...

Hehe. I can see Wilwa making basically the exact same point I did. And I like her suggestion of making a deal we stop voting someone on two votes to ensure we have enough representatives.

Let's also pick some of those who do not seem to wish to become one.

[Eönwë]

So, I was trying to read everything posted before I did, but it seems like I'm trying to climb to the top of an ever-growing mountain.

Originally Posted by the phantom

PS If you haven't voted me as your representative yet, please do so. Let's make history.

That would be like holding the record for the longest jump on the Moon- totally irrelevant. In fact, let's make it a Day 1 first and totally ignore phantom for a whole Day... well, actually, it's too late for that now that he's been voted in, but we should've.

Originally Posted by Loslote

TP does his own thing, not very influenced by manipulations - other than his promise not to vote for those he is representing, which doesn't bother me - as I am not a SoE, which lessens the chance of him voting for a true Orc. Since I don't have a chance to really look at people toDay, this is the least risky move I could make, in my mind.

Well, he only made that promise after you voted for him. Innocent mistake or a sneaky Elvish excuse for justifying voting phantom?

Originally Posted by Loslote

If tp was the Undecided Orc, he'd never have decided already. Surely you remember the game where he was Zeus, and killed his own Seer to even out the game? If he were the Undecided Orc, he would not decided instantly to align himself with the SoE, he'd choose whichever side was doing worst at the time when he had to choose.

If he acted (even remotely) consistently (other than attention-seeking, of course), he wouldn't be the phantom. Or of course, he could double bluff and just be hinting to the Sons of Elrond that he's the Undecided so that they don't kill him (yet). Or he could begin pretending to hint to them to save himself. Or... well... there's too many possibilities. We'll just have to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I must also say, there is one thing - if everybody unisono voted phantom, there will be lot less clues as well.

I agree with you about it being a bad idea, but you can't deny that it would be quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hearts

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.

It's true. People seem to tend to lose steam about half way through the second half of the Day.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

Definitely. This makes Inzil look good. Though, on the other hand, few votes means that the Elves can monopolise the voting.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Wolves? They're our friends!

Have you ever spoken to an angry wolf?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Well there's half of the SoE right there. That's a clear hint. Clear.

It would be quite funny if they were just playing with us like that, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I agree with this, yet at the same time, it gives people more of a chance to vote thus eliminating the "I didn't have time to vote" excuse. If this ever happens, then we at least have something to look at.

Really? We just get 24 hours as usual. Of course, the "I didn't have time to read the thread so I won't comment at all" excuse is more likely to disappear.

Also, an interesting thing would be to see what happens if the Undecided becomes a Rep toDay... er... toOrcWakingCycle.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Wilwa (she turned up at last, yay!) and Nog are making sense. Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Nothing to do with Legate, just having fun banter whilst throwing a couple sneaky punches. "Sauron's pet = Shelob" phantom said Palpatine was the "apple of the Great Eye," and "Emperor's cat" = I'm saying underneath that dark cloak phantom is mostly talk, and when it comes to cats you will see his weaknesses.

Think of it as a smear campaign paid for by the "Committee to not let phantom get elected. Treasurer: Shasta"

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So I think I should slowly start deciding about my vote for the representative. Let me see...

Boro - okay, but slightly weird with some of his opinions, I don't like his radicalism so much. If I want an opponent for the phantom, Lommy, who has already one vote, is enough, and Boro said something like that he wanted to vote her, which is fine by me

Go hard or go home. That's my motto.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"

By your own admission you've never been lynched, so you would never be a real logical option, would you not agree? But the bigger question what am I trying to accomplish? The chance to be the first one to ever lynch the phantom is too enticing to resist. It's probably a fruitless and wasted endeavor completely, as apparently lynching you is impossible...but never the less, I do not back down from the impossible challenge.

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

Oh and parting shot, SoE = Sons of.....EEEEEEEEvil.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Steve

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

See! Told you!


And no, I haven't managed to read the rest of the thread that quickly.





edit: fixed quote

[Thinlómien]

Reading and writing at the same time, so my apologies if I'm repeating stuff... I just got a sudden inspiration to go to sleep soon.

Originally Posted by Rune

I am sure that it will surprise absolutely nobody that I will give Lommy my vote. (whether she likes it or not)

I do like it...

Originally Posted by Legate

I am actually surprised with the really strong reaction of Lommy's to the phantom-business, while I agree, it's a bit scary the way she reacts so strongly.

Hm? I don't think it was so strong.

Originally Posted by Glirdy

I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I think that's just a regular Rune attitude.

Originally Posted by Boro

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign.

Weee! Strict Old Boro lectures on young women!

Originally Posted by Boro

Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom.

Am I really so scary? Seriously though, while I think lynching tp just for the sake of it would be fun, I don't think that's a wise course unless we actually have some suspicions of him being a wolf which at least I don't really have yet.

Originally Posted by Boro

Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

Somebody ought to put Dr Boro on a vacation. He is not himself.

Originally Posted by Greenie

a representative probably won't vote for the ones who elected him/her to power anyway, out of courtesy or just unconsciously, at least not unless there is really heavy evidence against one of the voters.

I think I did that last time. I think it's more about that people won't vote people who suspect them as reps.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Now, I think you [Lottie] go too far here. What you've got to remember is that the fact that he's [phantom's] trying really hard to establish some kind of cult around himself doesn't mean he merits it more than anyone else does. Oh, he's sharp and all that, but there are other sharp and independed-minded people around here too and I don't like how little credit they get just because they don't make such a show of themselves.

*loves her little sis*

Originally Posted by tp

Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me.

And you think they would really be so intimidated by you? *raises an eyebrow*

Originally Posted by Folwren

The only thing that I think would induce me or another innocent into attempting to become a representative would be to gain power and attention and to actually think we could help the village by our intuition.

Well I think an innocent could want to be a rep simply for the selfish reason of wanting to have their say in things.

Originally Posted by tp

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

I can come up with only one or two people in this game whom I would not trust to definitely show up and vote and be reasonable in their own way, so I don't get why anybody should vote you based on that. And while I agree no one knows anybody's alignment (are we really discussing this?!), you can make a better guess at somebody's alignment after 24 hours than when the game has just started.

Originally Posted by tp

What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)

Love you too, phantom!

Originally Posted by tp

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right?

I bet they are better than with totally random voting...

Originally Posted by tp

And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him.

Well, maybe not, but it doesn't make voting for fun any smarter.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

So then for the rest of this half of the Day, once someone has 2 votes nobody else should vote for them, that way about half the (what do you call a group of Orcs? A clan of orcs? A gaggle of orcs? A grunt of orcs?), uhm, half the 'village' will be representatives, and it will make the voting process much more interesting, rather than have like 5 people with various amounts of power, that makes me uneasy. Does that seem fair, or am I missing something (like I said, never played a rep game before).

I think it sounds good. Mostly we should have a fair number of reps (not just two or three) and they should preferably be quite well balanced in their voting power.

Originally Posted by Nog

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role..

Yep, good point - actually (I might be contradicting myself here but who cares) it just occured to me that an attractive course of action for a SoE would probably be just to sit back and relax and not to get his hands bloody.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Eönwë, I totally... loath you for that comment! *hu... punches*

Originally Posted by Nog

EDIT: x'd with Mira... *bangs head to the desk and cuts the power off from the computer frustrated*

Those were my feelings too.

Legate - sort of annoys me in the innocent way
Glirdy - awfully quick to concentrate the talk on phantom, otherwise ok (easily distractable innocent or a wolf trying to steer the discussion?)
Folwren - kind of like the friendly but cut the crap attitude of hers
Nogrod - aww good ol' Nog's back! seems like his innocent self
Boro - my infamous bororadar is saying more innocent than guilty but I don't like his phantocentric attitude
Nerwen and Shasta - you two cuties can be in the same cathegory: I like your attitude and you are very scary ww players AND I haven't seen enough of you to form a picture of what's up
Greenie - it's scary how much we agree, I like her <3. Her vote is very good - maybe even too good?
Sally, Lottie and Mira - annoy me to an extent but I have no actual clear reasonable suspicions against them
Celuien and Kath - not present but of course we forgive Kath because she always does this *ugly orcish leering smile*
Zil, Eönwë and Izzy - can't read them yet
Rune - is either good or trying to buddy me up, which would be disturbing

Haha, this rep games might really be my cup of tea because it's always so much easier to say who's innocent than who's guilty. I think my rep vote will go to Foley or Greenie - I could also vote Leg or Nog but I know they will strive to influence the vote even as non-reps so I wouldn't be too sad even if they weren't elected.

Off to brush my teeth and then it will be decision time...


edit: xed with everything after Boro's #106

[Celuien]

I'm finally here and catching up on the minutes. Halfway through... I've been reveling in the evilness of demolishing a camp near the mountain. Bwhahaha.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm finally here and catching up on the minutes. Halfway through... I've been reveling in the evilness of demolishing a camp near the mountain. Bwhahaha.

Yes! A true orc, bursting onto the scene and finding pleasure in her evil deeds!

At this point I'd say Celuien should be one of the leaders to be a rep. We'll see what she says after reading.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

At this point I'd say Celuien should be one of the leaders to be a rep. We'll see what she says after reading.

Why?

x/d with Shasta

[Eönwë]

Night 1
Seer Dream



Day 1

Representative votes:
Sally |Orc| -> Phantom
Lottie |Elf|-> Phantom (2)
Rune -> Lommy
Greenie |Elf| -> Nerwen
Nog |Orc| -> Izzy |Orc|
Mira |Seer|-> Phantom (3)
Boro |Orc| -> Wilwa
Lommy -> Greenie |Elf|
Steve -> Greenie |Elf| (2)
Inzil -> Boro |Orc|
Shasta -> Izzy |Orc| (2)
Legate -> Nerwen (2)
Celuien |Orc| -> Foley
Phantom -> Celuien |Orc|
Nerwen -> Lommy
Wilwa |Orc| -> Lommy
Foley -> Celuien |Orc| [2- same Day]
Izzy |Orc| -> Wilwa

Representatives:
(3):Phantom, Lommy
(2):Nerwen, [B]Izzy |Orc|, Wilwa, Greenie |Elf|, Celuien |Orc|

Did not vote: Glirdy, Kath


Lynch votes:
Lommy +++ Lottie |Elf| (3)
Greenie |Elf| ++ Sally |Orc| (2)
Nerwen + Sally |Orc|(3)
Nerwen + Boro |Orc| (1)
Celuien |Orc| ++ Boro |Orc| (3)
Wilwa |Orc| + Sally |Orc| (4)
Wilwa |Orc| + Lottie |Elf| (4)
Izzy |Orc| ++ Lottie |Elf| (6)

Lynch: Lottie |Elf|

Did not vote: Phantom

Night 2
Kill: Izzy |Orc|
Seer Dream
Orc of Undecided Allegiance chooses role



Day 2

Representative votes:
Nerwen -> Shasta
Rune -> Steve
Greenie |Elf| -> Steve (2) [2]
Nog |Orc| > Legate
Steve -> Legate (2)
Lommy -> Nog |Orc|
Inzil -> Shasta (2)
Wilwa |Orc| -> Foley
Legate -> Foley (2)
Shasta -> Nerwen [2- same Day]
Sally |Orc| -> Nog |Orc| (2)
Phantom -> Legate (3)

Representatives:
(3): Legate
(2): Steve, Shasta, Foley, Nog |Orc|

Did not vote:
Kath, Mira |Seer|, Celuien |Orc|, Foley

Lynch votes:
Nog |Orc| ++ Wilwa
Legate +++ Celuien |Orc|
Shasta ++ Sally |Orc|
Steve ++ Wilwa |Orc| (4)
Foley ++ Sally |Orc| (4)

Lynch: Sally |Orc|, Wilwa |Orc|

Did not vote: -

Other Deaths: Boro |Orc|, Glirdy



Night 3
Kill: Nog |Orc|
Seer Dream



Day 3

Representative votes:
Greenie |Elf| ->Inzil
Foley -> Greenie |Elf|
Kath -> Inzil (2)
Legate -> Rune
Steve -> Rune (2) [2]
Lommy -> Nerwen [2]
Rune -> Kath
Shasta -> Nerwen (2) <2> [2- same Day]
Inzil -> Greenie |Elf| (2) [2- same Day]

Representatives:
(2) Inzil, Rune, Nerwen, Greenie |Elf|

Did not vote:
Celuien |Orc|, Mira |Seer|, Nerwen, Phantom

Lynch votes:
Greenie |Elf| ++ Nerwen /2\
Inzil ++ Greenie |Elf| {3- Same Day)
Rune ++ Greenie |Elf| (4)
Nerwen ++ Greenie |Elf| (6) [2- same Day]


Lynch: Greenie

Did not vote: -

Other Deaths:Celuien |Orc|


Night 4
Kill: Mira |Seer|
Seer Dream: -


Key:
-> = voted as rep
++ = voted to lynch (number of +s=voting power)
() = number of votes someone has in the same category
<> = a repeat vote (i.e., voting for a rep a second time)
/\ = a vote for the same person in any category (i.e., voting for someone as rep, and then lynch-voting that person- does not need to be consecutive)
[] = a return/revenge-vote (i.e., someone voting for someone who voted for them in the same category)
{} = A return/revenge vote in any category
|| = roles
Italics = the dead

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Yes, contest. And with no personal gain whatsoever.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

Though that was a kind of clever way to stop so many people voting for you so soon, wasn't it?

[Eönwë]

Considering voting for rep:
Legate
Zil
Greenie

Also look quite good:
Foley
Lommy

THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION:
The Phantom

Will not vote:
Boro (I have no idea about his alignment, but I don't like his whole "I'll negate phantom" thing)


I'm not sure about other people yet.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It seems we already have two "parties" here - and a few bystanders who carefully consider their words not to commit themselves. This Sally - Lottie - tp triangle looks just a bit too obvious to be true. But the moral highground of Shasta - Nerwen - Lommy trio is kind of too neat as well. And the carefulness of Legate -Zil - Glirdy looks soo suspicious...

Gah. Sorry about throwing you guys into these "easy categories": they are my first impressions. I hope I can elaborate on them later and maybe put up some better ideas.

These categories actually do make sense to me - and there defintely are party dynamics at work here.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I don't see why you are so quick to trust and defend Phantom, Loslote.

I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Perhaps not - but from your own perspective one could think that you would find a good decision easier to make after a bit more time for considering it...

I did not know I would be awake so long, and up until I voted, nothing of great importance had occured. Nerwen was badgering tp because of IC banter, which was the only thing of substance at the time - other than tp's comments and Sallycake's vote.

As for the 'splitting up votes' idea of Vanilwuffin's and Nog's, I think it's a good idea, especially for the earlier Days. Later on, of course, it'd make sense to give more power to someone who who genuniely trust, as opposed to voting for someone else simply because the person you wanted to represent you already had xyr quota of votes for the Day.

Originally posted by Shasta:
I think not, it pretty clearly shows that Sally and Lottie don't really feel like playing before Day 2 starts (which, in a sidenote, also makes it look like they are sure they'll be around for said Day 2... something to consider).

Or couldn't be around to really play before Day 2 starts. And given the size of the village, there's comparatively little risk of wolf-kill than normal.

Oh, by the way, I'm finally back...

EDIT: yeah, I xed with people since Zil's 'why' post.

EDITEDIT: I xed with tons of people because I started this post hours ago, but never got to do anything with it.

[Thinlómien]

I'm glad Shasta has taken up me and Greenie's crusade against phantom's silly arguments so I don't need to concentrate on it any longer, haha. I'm really puzzled though - is phantom 1) really seriously arguing about these things, 2) just too proud to admit he's been wrong and thus keeps coming up with rather weird arguments after each other or 3) trying to test people? I would think number 3 is the most probable option and number 2 the least probable one. I wonder what he's trying to achieve by that, though - only some kind of half of the village united against phantom situation, which is kind of weird. (This is to say, hint hint, phantom, stop arguing unless you really think your points are worth bringing up. )

Originally Posted by Shasta

(Sidenote: It's hard for me to be genuinely angry at Phantom after having met the guy, but man, he does frustrate me sometimes.)

Well if it comforts you, my attitude towards him in ww hasn't changed a bit since I met him.

Originally Posted by Izzy

We don't want a Rep who will cower and give-in to the other Rep(s). Representative dynamic is something to think about as well.

Well yes, but we don't want to have reps who are unable to co-operate, either.

Then to the rep choices... I kind of like them, but I have a feeling there's at least one if not two SoE among them simply because so many people I think innocent are NOT among the reps. I'm not too happy about phantom and me having more power than the others, but it's better that there's the two of us. And now I feel responsible...

Originally Posted by Folwren

I'd like to suggest that we kill Phantom this evening. Using his own logic, the first death is a stab in the dark anyway, so it may as well be him, right? Plus, he's beginning to really get on my nerves. He reminds me of my older brother a few years ago, before my older brother became a husband and a father...a stuck up know-it-all before he'd really met the world and been taken
down a few notches.

*is amused*

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, and regarding the term "baddie"– I still refuse to submit to the phantom's dictum that we should speak of the village as "evil" and the wolves (Elves) as "good". Too confusing. I've been in reversed-alignment villages before, and we didn't do that.

Seconded.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Nerwen, just 'cause Phantom has a huge ego doesn't mean we shouldn't deflate it for him. It would do him good, I imagine. He might be able to wear regular hat sizes again instead of having to special order them.

!!! Brilliant. You know, though, when I met him in person I quite carelessly referred to him thinking about complicated schemes in his small head and that probably the worst offense anyone ever said to him. Poor phantom!

Originally Posted by Boro

With that, I bid thee adieu as I take the rest of this day off. May the lynching be fruitful by serving us an SoE head on a silver platter!

What? What about hanging around and telling us who you suspect and helping the reps making their choices?

Originally Posted by tp

For all you know you just elected a SoE, where as I know for a fact that the ladies you are criticizing elected an orc.

That is not a valid argument unless you can prove you're an orc.

I would rather not attempt lynching tp toDay (unless there is stuff to point at his guilt) because it would further make the whole Day concentrate on him because he has a substantial amount of the total votes and he has made it quite clear he is going to use them to protect himself, which will potentially just cause damage in the form of making a random and ill-advised lynch.


PS. Does somebody else find reading tp's and Legate's signatures after each other highly amusing? *snicker*

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lommy

What? What about hanging around and telling us who you suspect and helping the reps making their choices?

Maybe he means he can't be around?

Originally Posted by Lommy

Then to the rep choices... I kind of like them, but I have a feeling there's at least one if not two SoE among them simply because so many people I think innocent are NOT among the reps.

*shrugs* If the SoE haven't managed to get one of their own elected, I don't think we have much to fear from them.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Maybe he means he can't be around?

Well that's what I kind of assumed too but why to announce it so happily...?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mira

Deal. And I'm holding you to that.

Well well, I didn't actually expect that in the least. Well then... I'm an orc of my word, and I will at some point in the following two weeks take a picture to prove I have kept my end of the bargain. *bows*

Originally Posted by Folwren

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not.

Why do you assume she did not read, and even if she didn't, why would that have changed her vote? I haven't seen anyone say anything incredibly compelling to discourage her from doing as she has done.

Why be so condescending, as if you know better? You do realize don't you that at this stage you and everyone else knows absolutely nothing, right? For all you know I'm the flippin Seer and Mira spotted something that you didn't.

Originally Posted by Boro

By your own admission you've never been lynched... The chance to be the first one to ever lynch the phantom is too enticing to resist.

Um, I believe this is the 1,314th time I've had to say this, but- I have never claimed such a thing. I was lynched fairly early on- in the third WW game on this site. Where does this "never been lynched" myth come from?

Right now I'm trying to decide if you are foolish enough to fabricate a reason for lynching me that is so incredibly easy to disprove.

All in all Boro I have not been a fan of yours to this point. You're getting hung up on things you'd normally realize were pointless, and just... No, I'll say no more. Just, you know, shape it up, or I'll begin to think these lapses are intentional.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And you think they would really be so intimidated by you? *raises an eyebrow*

The SoE fear being lynched, and if something is happening that increases those odds, they would most definitely become fearful of whoever it is holding those votes.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And while I agree no one knows anybody's alignment (are we really discussing this?!), you can make a better guess at somebody's alignment after 24 hours than when the game has just started.

I agree in some cases, but it still remains but a guess- particularly on this first day. And if the SoE are playing well early then your guess will logically have a worse chance of being right than a random vote. That's simply the way things are, like it or not. Don't act like those early voters made some sort of serious sacrifice by voting early. They didn't vote stupidly- they voted differently.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

So it's good to vote randomly because having an SoE as a rep this early is useful later, but also because you're less likely to get one?

For the most part you've got it.

Basically, my point is that it doesn't matter enough that it should be as big a deal as people are making of it.

Given the right circumstances, the odds of voting right later in the day don't necessarily increase, and under this set up it might actually prove useful later to be wrong early anyway. I'd say the primary difference in the way you stated it and what I meant was that you said that it's "good" to vote randomly, where as my point was more that it's "not bad" to vote randomly.

[the phantom]

Oh, and just for the record, I don't have enough votes.

Would you like to see me dressed up a certain way in a picture? Perhaps you'd like me to visit? Or you'd like me to never visit? Or would you just like to receive some cold hard cash in the mail? I am absolutely willing to negotiate. Name the price of your vote.

Boro- I'll sport a "I hate Ohio St" shirt. Cel- I'll buy you another one of those awesome outfits you wore on New Years. Glirdan- I'll make your dream of being kidnapped and delivered to Boston come true. Kath- I'll start watching Doctor Who.

Lommy- I'll delete my account after the game and never return.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Would you like to see me dressed up a certain way in a picture?

So tempted, but no. You already have too many votes.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I think they'll probably want to be reps as late in the game as possible. However obvious that may sound, my point is that on Day 2, the reps will be under less scrutiny than on Day 1, and so on, because there will be more other things to go on (in terms of suspicion). So, as well as being more important later on, I think the Elves will want to reps later because they'll have less focus on them.

I get your point, but I don't think I totally agree. I think because they will be so important later on, they'll have even more focus on them. But because their influence will be so much bigger then (since there will be less of them at a time), than I think the SoE will desire the position even more by that point, whether they have a lot of focus or not.

I'm going to disappear for a bit, but I'll definitely be back well in time for DL.

x'ed with Eonwe, well if everyone votes than either someone will only receive 1 vote and not be a rep, or someone else will need to have 3 votes. But there will likely be atleast one person who doesn't vote *cough*Kath*cough*, so we'll probably end up with a bunch of 2Reps and then the one 3Rep. But I think we should avoid giving anyone more than 3 votes. (but also be careful that we don't end up with a bunch of people with just 1 vote, and not get any representatives, )

[A Little Green]

Boro - Hmm. An enigma, for the time being.
Foley - Can't form an opinion yet.
Glirdy - No read this far.
Izzy - Can't form an opinion yet.
Legate - Seems reasonable this far.
Lommy - Feels genuine, if only for her outburst about the phantom-voters. Not sure if I want to vote her for rep though.
Lottie - Not comfortable with her. I would hazard to guess either she or Sally is a SoE, but at the moment I'm moer inclined to believe it's Sally.
Nerwen - I feel OK about her at the moment, might vote her for rep actually.
Nog - Can't form an opinion yet.
Phantom - Hasn't really said much, has he? Or rather, when trying to think about the exact things he's said I couldn't come up with much anything (apart from arguing about good and evil and trying to get people to vote him for rep).
Rune - Of the little I've seen of him I'm more inclined to find him innocent. Could be wrong, though.
Sally - The one I'm feeling worst about. I think I stated reasons in my previous post.
Shasta - Feels genuine in his phantom-frustration - and then again, a Shastaelf would probably be frustrated by phantom too (be it phantomelf or phantomorc). Eurgh, I just started considering the possibility of the two of them being elves together. Not something I'd like to see.
Zil- I never can read him, but so far I'm at least not alarmed.

Not seen yet:
Celuien
Kath
Mira
Steve
Vanilwa

EDIT: Wow, x-ed with Boro, phantom, Folwren, Glirdan and phantom