Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So I'm improved when I start bitching? Wonderful.

In my opinion, yes!

Of course a change of attitude could also indicate sinister motives, but so far I have no reason to believe that this is the case.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, anyone should think twice before voting him for representative now. I mean, with two votes he already is a representative, and it would be very rash to give him more power by making him a powerful representative when the Day is still in the beginning and no one else has received any rep votes.

I don't think he needs any more votes.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I think I will get fed up with these jokes in not so distant future...

That's the last one from me.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Well, anyone should think twice before voting him for representative now. I mean, with two votes he already is a representative, and it would be very rash to give him more power by making him a powerful representative when the Day is still in the beginning and no one else has received any rep votes.

I actually had forgotten that it only took two votes to be a representative.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am actually surprised with the really strong reaction of Lommy's to the phantom-business, while I agree, it's a bit scary the way she reacts so strongly. But at least it seems to have an intimidating effect and people realised (if they didn't do so by themselves) what power do the votes hold - basically what I said.

I must thank to Rune for finding enough energy to read my post and at the same time find it "not complete trash" Although I should remark that the "buttering up" of mine and especially Lommie's posting made me worried a little bit (I am thinking of the general wolf strategy of "buddying up" with somebody, which especially in the representative-game can also have other effects, like getting people to vote for you as the representative. I think actually that is an issue we should keep an eye out for in this game as well, for that matter, the thing about sally and Lottie possibly also "buddying" phantom in this way holds too). That said, I do not consider it any obvious sign of guilt or anything like that, but at least it looked a little attention-rising to me now (with the sort of enthusiasm Rune had, unusual, seemed to me).

I could also remark that I find it funny, though, how since several of the posts which pointed out the danger of having all votes for phantom, and especially after Lommy's rather strongly frustrated post, the "public thinking" sort of shifted towards the same paradigm of echoing it - like Inzil or Glirdan (and even Rune, with what I mentioned above). Since it became a "fashion", I expect that now it is easier for the SoE to join this "fashion", and not support phantom any more. Which means, I am also watching those I mentioned above - mainly the first two, with Zil being a bit casual, which might have been just joining the flow, and Glirdy being a bit laid-back, which might have been so as not to be in the centre of attention but still agree with the majority.

Anyway, still there is a horde of people to see, so... looking forward to more.

EDIT: x-posted with Nogrod and onwards...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A practical note (as people don't normally read the admin. thread): My home internet connection died yesterday, so for now I'm dependent on any wireless internet connections for my laptop (basically my neighbourhood pub) and my school's computers during daytime.

Oh crap, some business for Hadanka pub, is it, then

I just have to say for Rune's vote, as far as it was indeed predictable (and especially if he has little time), it goes with the buttering-up stuff too. But again, probably any Rune would do that if he really is so happy about Lommy now - whether good or evil.

While Folwren also goes with the general anti-phantom opinion, she seems quite good to me on first sight - speaks reasonable and seems to speak out of her own mind (because she says something for example I said, but I assume she has not read that, given what she said about people who post long paraghraphs ).

There was something funny about Nog's post, I think he sort of started somewhere and then lost the thread, because the thoughts do not seem to come to any conclusion there. But hope that he is still going to have some net connection for more posting...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

I'd like to focus more on your first point. We all know tp to be a devilishly sly bugger when it comes to this game. What really has me worried is that there are two possibilities with his will-not-vote-for-people-who-vote-me-as-rep situation. First, he's really an orc who is just being plain old, arrogant phantom and wants the power and glory (which is probably the case whether he's orc or SoE ) of having been made almighty representative and is trying to find a way to subtly oust the SoE's.

Second, he's really an SoE and doing the whole double-, triple-, quadruple- bluffing.

Either way, it's his way of initiating chaos as that's what phantom does best. And yet for some reason, we all go along with it like the good little sheep he expects us to be. I personally feel like leaving him alone for a little while. That doesn't mean I'll drop him completely off my radar (that would just be plain idiotic), but I do not think we should dwell on the infinite possible plans that are brewing inside his head.

Originally Posted by Rune

btw I would happily be a representative my self. . . Power is nice.

I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

[satansaloser2005]

I'm here for the sake of clarification only. I'm at work, and shouldn't be posting at all, but I wanted to clear this up for my pie.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.


Also, glad to see that we stirred up discussion. I do so hate boring Day Ones.


I have to log off now, sorry. I'll be able to read if I'm careful but I really don't like being on the site at the office. I'll be back in....six or seven hours, I'd say, though perhaps not. Either way, behave while I'm gone, and keep being pedantic.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I would also like to mention that all three of the votes that have been cast make me very uneasy. I would understand them a little more and probably be less leery of them were it not for the fact that the Day's last for 48 hours. Why are you all casting your votes now? Will you have no internet access from now until tomorrow at 9pm EST?

We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.

Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.

-- Folworc

X-posted with Sally.

[Eönwë]

Just to tell you where I am:

I'm going to need to go soon, but I'm considering choosing Legate or Zil as rep. Possibly Lommy, if she can convince me, but that would be a bit too much of an anti-phantom move, which is just as bad as the original pro-phantom move at the beginning of the Day.


Still reading...

[Boromir88]

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him. These then are the options I see.

We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

To Rune: make him work for it! You know how the system works now, these politicians don't need to do much work anymore to get elected, with the amount of precious metals and gems people hand them!

Edit: crossed with Glirdan, sally and Foley

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Sallycakes

No, dear, because the time to vote for representatives is only 24 hours. The first "half" of the Day is voting for reps, and the second "half" of the Day is the reps voting for who we shall lynch. Thus, we only have until tonight.

Originally Posted by Foley

We have to vote for our representatives today before 9 P.M. EST. Between that time and tomorrow 9 P.M. we discuss and tell the reps who to vote to lynch.

Oh geez...I think that means it's time for me to hit the sack for a couple of hours before I go completely mental. Thanks ladies.

EDIT:

Just saw this:

Originally Posted by Borc

All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Made my day!! Thank you!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Legate, you're right - I didn't read your post. Sorry. I'll do that sometime today if I have time. I'm trying to juggle this game, my work, and my homework all at once. My work is fine, but this game and the homework is suffering miseably.

No problem, I am not offended, if you didn't have the focus for reading long posts, it is understandable. It does not matter when you read it, the only point is that it should be in your own best intention (if the village's good is in your best intention) to get as much information as possible so that you can make your decision the best you can... But I know a lot about busy days, so if you cannot read a lot, it's understandable. Although that said, I think this day's posting was actually quite short, this far - only two pages (not even full yet) - I have known a lot worse Day 1s.

Boro makes a good point (if I understood it correctly) about sally and Lottie, I am not sure what to make of his rather depressive scenarios concerning phantom.

And this I don't like at all, and I don't get it - at least I don't get it how can anyone post the first thought seriously:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We can give him absolute power now, before he is corrupted by the desire for it, and in doing so we satisfy his ego and amusement. The pros to this is he actually does some good with his power. The negs, his ego can never be satisfied, only temporarily appeased, and when it's all said and done. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep). The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

The other thing I do not like is "the other representative could be ME, thank you". My initial thought was of a very bold Boroelf, even worse, Morgoth save us, he and phantom as two pals. But anyway, all of this does not make any sense, or I must have completely misunderstood it. I don't understand why you are counting with the fact that phantom is one representative who gets, apparently, according to your counting, half of the votes or something like that (or: at least more than just two he has now, apparently). What is it supposed to be? You say like all the dictators who come with the slogan of "balancing the power of the greater evil". I honestly totally dislike the way you put it, and like I said, it does not make any sense. My image was that we will all vote, we'll get let's say five representatives, some with one, some with two votes or something like that, and those will decide. You act as if we were counting with two representatives, which does not make any sense - if there were only two, then effectively the one of them who has more votes decides whom to lynch and it's done. Or, like I said, maybe I misunderstood you completely. Because this way it does not make any sense. At least I don't see half of the people voting phantom - not after what we saw now, with many people being against it.

Originally Posted by Boro

We can go with the other impossible that Lommy proposes and kill him. Pros, this looks like the most appealing and attractive offer at the moment. Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom. Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

That said, I don't have a personal favourite for a representative yet, but I think I am starting to get at least some ideas of whom I am not going to make one... but lots of time to decide still.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Izzy

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none.

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*

Originally Posted by Boromir88

On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him.

I don't like this at all. All this talk about power makes you seem like you're trying to sh

Originally Posted by Boromir88

These then are the options I see.

And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

Also, you speak as if the phantom is on his own team, and, while it is true that it might seem as such, in the end he will b helping one team to win. All this talk of "appeasing" him is pointless- we shouldn't have to bribe him onto our side. If he's an Elf, then he'll just be pretending to be, and if he's an orc then he already should be. And if it's power he wants, he should be the one that has to work to convince us of his innocence.

And finally, this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep).

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.


I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!


This, on the other hand I kind of agree with:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

I.e., we've been so focused on phantom, that we haven't even discussed other candidates or possible voting strategies, and by that I mean whether we want many 'weak' representatives (in which case we might as well just be a normal village), or a few 'powerful' representatives (which is much more risky because one of them could be a wolf, but could also be a strong force for good), or perhaps a mix (which is probably what will happen. But would that be good?)


Anyway, this is the post I'm on. Still reading.

[Nogrod]

How come everyone is so predictable these days?

But as Lommoblin said, there seems to be a real danger of partisan-politics here. Polarisation is the poison of democracy.

It seems we already have two "parties" here - and a few bystanders who carefully consider their words not to commit themselves. This Sally - Lottie - tp triangle looks just a bit too obvious to be true. But the moral highground of Shasta - Nerwen - Lommy trio is kind of too neat as well. And the carefulness of Legate -Zil - Glirdy looks soo suspicious...

Gah. Sorry about throwing you guys into these "easy categories": they are my first impressions. I hope I can elaborate on them later and maybe put up some better ideas.

But really Phantoblin, you will not vote for those who vote you for representative? First of all you contradict yourself as you insist on being bad at heart - wouldn't lynching those who trust you be the "baddie move" then? (actually you should have to break that promise as a representative for me to trust you...) Secondly: if you are on the orc side isn't your task to get rid of the elves whoever they are - even if they try to do you lip-service by voting you as a representative?

Anyway, if we are baddies everyone (besides the SoE) should we try to harm our own case just to be evil? I don't see that discussion to be interesting, helpful or useful. We have a task at hand, getting rid of the elves, whether we call getting rid of them good or bad.


~*~
A practical note (as people don't normally read the admin. thread): My home internet connection died yesterday, so for now I'm dependent on any wireless internet connections for my laptop (basically my neighbourhood pub) and my school's computers during daytime. That will limit the times I can be online greatly. On the positive note I get to sleep my nights as there is no internet for me after the pub closes...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am afraid, but I need to make an early vote.

I unfortunately I have basically nothing to base my decision on. . . I am sure that it will surprise absolutely nobody that I will give Lommy my vote. (whether she likes it or not)

btw I would happily be a representative my self. . . Power is nice.


++ Lommy for representative

[Folwren]

You people talk too much. I was going to listen to everybody, and then people started talking in long paragraphs at a time.

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

I'm most inclined to vote for Nerwen as my representative...but I am going to wait until time has passed and more things have panned out.

I am an orc of few words, and my few words have been spent.