What do you wish Tolkien....

[Rumil]

"I wish the Prof had time", I said,
"To talk of many things:
Of Elves--and Dwarves--and ME maps--
Of Dunedain--and Kings--
And why dragon breath is boiling hot--
And if Balrogs have wings."

Oh, Tuor in Gondolin, I heard that JRRT wrote a story about the Travels of Aragorn but the manuscript was subsequently lost .

I've wanted more info on Lindon and the Grey Havens. Imagine a biography of Cirdan - he'd been in Middle Earth right through (possibly even from Cuivienen), I bet he had a good tale or two!

[mark12_30]

I want a house on the shores of Annuminas.

[Flame of Udûn]

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by Flame of Udûn

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

Ditto. At least for Khuzdul. Though appararently there are some notes that may, someday, if one possesses Elven (or at least Dunedain) longevity, get published in Vinyar Tengwar...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Flame of Udûn

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

Well, as a wish there's nothing wrong with this obviously, but I'll just point out something Tolkien said in an interview:

"No. No. No. I wouldn't mind other people knowing it, and enjoying it, but I didn't really want to, like some people who have been equally inventive in languages [? desiring ?] to sort of make cults and have people speaking it all together, no, I don't desire to go and have an afternoon talking Elvish to chaps. For one thing of course Elvish is too complicated. I've never finished making it."


I think JRRT wanted to 'complete' some things about 'Elvish', maybe including a presentation of the historical relationships between the various Elvish language branches (at least in some measure), or producing consistent enough and satisfactory etymologies concerning a lot of his nomenclature, for another example, but I don't get the feeling he wanted to complete a given language in the sense of presenting it to the world as finished and 'usuable', like Esperanto for instance.

Not that anyone said otherwise in any case

[Elemmakil]

Another thing I should like to have seen more of is the rewrite of Hobbit c. 1960 that was intended to bring it more in line with the published LoTR. As I recall (too lazy to get up and go to the shelf...) he got three (?I think that's right) chapters in but abandoned the project when an unidentified friend, to whom he had shown the draft, commented something to the effect that "it was very good, but not The Hobbit".

While I respect the reason behind the decision, I rather wish he had postponed showing this friend the draft for at least another chapter or two (or three or...) as it was fascinating to watch how he tried to reconcile The Hobbit with his later works. For example, to help explain why Gandalf could not read the inscriptions on the swords found in the Troll cave (since, as is obvious from LoTR, he certainly could), Tolkien rewrote the text slightly to state that the swords were covered in dried orc blood, and would need to be cleaned and repolished to read any inscriptions.

The text cuts off at the end of "Roast Mutton" - had Tolkien gotten to at least the next chapter we might have been rewarded with, for example, a fuller description of Orcrist and Glamdring. While certainly not all would agree, I at least think it would have been very cool.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Of course we'd love to have a full account of Feanor's life, the grand events of the first battles of the Elves and Morgoth, and more about the crossing of the ice and the Kinslaying. Not to mention much more about Earendil's travels, a book like the Voyage of the Dawn Treader without all the Biblical allegory would be amazing.

[Cirdan]

I wish that J.R.R. had been given the life of the Eldar so he could have continued writing!

First and foremost, I'd like to read a completed Silmarillion fleshed out to the level of a couple of the Unfinished Tales like those of Tuor and Turin. What a monumental work the Silmarillion would have been if every chapter was a detailed saga!

I would also like alot more of the histories of Arnor and Gondor. Where exactly did the Dunedain of Rhudaur and Cardolan live? A lot more on Umbar, the Black Numenoreans, and how a few of them became Nazgul. The story of the slaying of Scatha the Worm, more about Dorwinion and life around the Sea of Rhun, and Nurnen, and what was built at Emyn Arnen?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Elemmakil

Another thing I should like to have seen more of is the rewrite of Hobbit c. 1960 that was intended to bring it more in line with the published LoTR. As I recall (too lazy to get up and go to the shelf...) he got three (?I think that's right) chapters in but abandoned the project when an unidentified friend, to whom he had shown the draft, commented something to the effect that "it was very good, but not The Hobbit".

While I respect the reason behind the decision, I rather wish he had postponed showing this friend the draft for at least another chapter or two (or three or...) as it was fascinating to watch how he tried to reconcile The Hobbit with his later works. For example, to help explain why Gandalf could not read the inscriptions on the swords found in the Troll cave (since, as is obvious from LoTR, he certainly could), Tolkien rewrote the text slightly to state that the swords were covered in dried orc blood, and would need to be cleaned and repolished to read any inscriptions.

The text cuts off at the end of "Roast Mutton" - had Tolkien gotten to at least the next chapter we might have been rewarded with, for example, a fuller description of Orcrist and Glamdring. While certainly not all would agree, I at least think it would have been very cool.

Indeed it would. I'm particualarly curios about Glamdring's scabbard. In a footnote to the version of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. it is mentioned that the King's sword (which is presumably Glamdring) has a sheath of "ruel bone" (said to be ivory). Perhaps a more detailed description might have answered the question of whether it was a single peice or a series of plaques, which would have bearing on the species (see my other thread)

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I've wanted more info on Lindon and the Grey Havens. Imagine a biography of Cirdan - he'd been in Middle Earth right through (possibly even from Cuivienen), I bet he had a good tale or two!

Yeah!!! And why he, of all elves, seemed aged with a grey beard! Did he offend Illuvatar with his jokes or something?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Yeah!!! And why he, of all elves, seemed aged with a grey beard! Did he offend Illuvatar with his jokes or something?

Yes, that too! Cirdan is another enigma!

But still, what I'm most curious about is life withing an Elven community. We know that they got fruits and vegetables from somewhere. I doubt that Rivendell imported them from Dunlend, or something. They must have had farms. Can you imagine a proud elf weeding their vegetable garden? And we know that some Elves (*cough Thranduil's guard *cough) aren't very happy with their Lords. I wonder what Elrond's people think of their role as his servants.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, that too! Cirdan is another enigma!

But still, what I'm most curious about is life withing an Elven community. We know that they got fruits and vegetables from somewhere. I doubt that Rivendell imported them from Dunlend, or something. They must have had farms. Can you imagine a proud elf weeding their vegetable garden? And we know that some Elves (*cough Thranduil's guard *cough) aren't very happy with their Lords. I wonder what Elrond's people think of their role as his servants.

No I don't picture the likes of Glorfindel or Gildor or Erestor raking the dirt, but these are "lords", and there is clearly some kind of social strata in elven culture. I would imagine that after thousands of years of life, they had perfected some of the management of mundane needs into arts that seem like "magic" to the likes of Samwise. They may have found ways to grow and cook things easily and perfectly with minimal effort and awesome results like Lembas. In and around Rivendell could be solaria greenhouses full of plants, and/or in the basement with Noldo-lanterns as hydroponic lights.

[Cirdan]

A number of people want more info on the Istari especially the Blue Wizards, but I want more information on Gandalf and Radagast. The Wizards arrived in TA 1000 but Tolkien was going to set that back into the SA when Sauron forged the One Ring and started war. If the Istari were in Middle-earth this friggin' long, what were they doing?

If Gandalf's main home was in the NW, what role did he play when Angmar was busy trashing Arnor? Recruiting Hobbit bowmen?

If Radagast lived by Mirkwood, what role did he ever play against Dol Guldur (TA 1100 onwards)?

Did Saruman ever live at Minas Tirith and did he offer counsel or aid when the Ulairi re-appeared and sacked Minas Ithil?

[Galin]

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

Their 'official', published arrival circa TA 1000 'coincides' with Sauron's return and his takeover of Amon Lanc. I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then? If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth? In the 2nd age Sauron's armies overran nearly everything except Lindon!

I wonder if JRRT had ever planned to revise any part of the Appendices in a future edition of LotR?


I would also like to ask JRRT whether Gandalf's Elvish name had changed after he became "The White". "Nimrandir" (white wanderer)? "Nimistar" (white wizard)? Did he go back to being good ol' Olorin in Valinor?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

I disagree a bit here. Tolkien wrote: 'It is difficult to accept these two homophonic elements -- of unconnected, indeed unconnectable meanings -- as used in Sindarin, or Sindarized names.' The Problem of Ros

And more importantly perhaps, in Tolkien's solution both -ros 'red brown' and Beorian roth > -ros 'foam' still existed in the ultimate same form and meaning in Maedros and Elros, but now both had not arisen within an Eldarin context. Elros would end with a mannish word for example, Maedros with an Elvish word; and now it would not be difficult to accept the homophones of unconnected meaning in these names.

My suggestion is to stick with that, but add, as noted with atan Sindarin adan (Dúnadan), that the Beorian word ros 'foam' became adopted into Grey-elven, and thus Cair Andros is explained as well. Yes the homophones still end up in Sindarin or Sindarized names -- as they remained in Maedros and Elros within Tolkien's own solution for example -- but why would it be difficult to accept that the meanings are unconnected?


The key is to adequately explain homophones of unconnected meaning in these names, and if Tolkien considers the problem solved by making one Beorian, the same solution remains if Beorian ros also becomes a borrowed word in Sindarin.


Also was -ros meaning 'red brown' published by JRRT? not exactly -ros, but the name Rhosgobel appears I think, though I'm not sure Tolkien himself ever noted its meaning in print, for his readership at large I mean.

Just to confirm: the borrowed Mannish word was atan from a note in Of Dwarves And Men, becoming adan in a Sindarin context of course.

[Mumriken]

I found the relationship between Melkor and the other valas to be most interesting. There is already a lot about Melkor but I'd like more. The only reason the children of hurin is such a great tale is because of him. How he mocks Hurin...and yeah he is just great. Ungoliant also seems really interesting to me.

In lord of the rings I was really facinated with the barrow downs, I really liked that chapter about Tom Bombadil and the barrow downs. I'd like more of that...whatever it is. Personally I'm not so interested in the wars of men and elves. I'm more into exploring characters and the origin's of strange beings.