The gods must be... blind?

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do hope that this isn't going to be used ot prove that Tolkien would have preferred the film over the radio adaptation of LOTR

We need more proof?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that such words as sight and sound are conventions being used by the Elven authors of the story, attempting to describe perceptions of beings who are by their nature spirit, not matter. The Ainur were pure thought, and prior to Eru showing them a vision of the Music, had no concept of anything incarnate. Eru's revelation was their first exposure to physicality, and while I suspect that for them, it was an experience that went far beyond "opening their eyes" for the first time, to an Elven lore master, that would be the nearest equivalent within his own experience.

[Mithalwen]

Good point Ibri... and of course the memories of Elves are more like visions than those of mortals so it is likely that their concepts of these words are different again.. though perhaps closer to that of the Valar.

[Inziladun]

But when [the Valar] were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it.

But the other Ainur looked upon this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the Elves called Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced in light, and their eyes beholding many colours were filled with gladness...

I see this as just the difference between seeing something in a dream, and physically experiencing it.
Before, the Ainur had no knowledge of, nor indeed any use for, sight. Ilúvatar put the vison into their minds, which gave them their first 'preview' of what the Music would be like when it was brought into being. When they actually saw the realm of Arda made physical it was even more amazing to them.

x/d with Mithalwen

[Morthoron]

Based on the Valar's action (or inaction) during most of the first 2 Ages of Middle-earth, I would have to say they remained blind. And hard of hearing as well.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on the Valar's action (or inaction) during most of the first 2 Ages of Middle-earth, I would have to say they remained blind. And hard of hearing as well.

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

True and funny. I think that while in the Void there was no light and nothing to see. But when they came onto Arda there was stuff to see so there had to be light. Unless YOU want to be running into trees and stubmling over rocks! (then Melkor would have said: let's steal the Flame Imparshable! And the other would have beat him up. What? Punish him and he might not have done anything )

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

to reluctanctly get more serious after a unfloolowably funny post but to go slightly off topic - I think I read in "Mr Baggins" that Tolkien reconsidered and felt that Radagast did not entirely fail but that his special relationship with the birds facilitated the eagles' crucial interventions in both the Quest of Erebor and at the end of The War of the Ring.

[LadyBrooke]

Radagast did do good but I question the particular wisdom of sending him and Saruman both. Usually when you want something done like the destruction of the dark lord you at least chose members who won't belittle other member of the group. Saruman on the other hand seem s to feel free to make fun of Radagast.

And besides if it were me I wouldn't have chosen any of Aule's followers. Whether it is the desire to make things or something else, they seem far too easy to lead astray