WW General rules discussion

[Rikae]

Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I'm noticing some fairly specific guidelines or rules being mentioned for specific roles. I would advise against this. The reason is each moderator has the liberty to define the roles as she/he sees fit. I think a rule such as:

Moderators must clearly define role, unless that is part of the game, in the admin thread and those roles will be followed. Specificity is a good thing here.

My understanding of the purpose of this thread is that the role descriptions we give here don't have to be followed– rather, we're attempting to define the standard roles, mainly for the benefit of newcomers. I think that will need to be emphasised in the final version.

Originally Posted by Rikae

4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.

Either way, I'd prefer to see this as a recommendation only, rather than a "hard" rule, or else make a token connection acceptable. *cough* Starship Lothlorien *cough*

Originally Posted by Rikae

Default Role Descriptions (?):
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer (does? does not?) get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

Agreed on 1.) and 2.) As for 4.), it's normal for the Seer to get a Night 1 dream.

The Hunter's role is a bit more problematic, as it never really has been standardised. Perhaps we should define Logical and non-Logical Hunters and leave it at that? I recall being quite confused on that issue as a n00b.

Shouldn't we also mention Cursed and Werebear? They're non-standard, true, but newbies often don't know what they are at all.

Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Rikae

4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.

Why don't we handle the Tolkien-relation like we're going to handle the experimentalism? Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it would fit in with the idea behind the sticky. Then again, I don't see any other feasible way to do it either. Maybe a third post on the thread could contain it?

[Macalaure]

morm, how long do you plan to keep the discussion going until you want a "final draft"? So far only a few people gave input, most of who were playing in the last game. A lot of experienced active players don't seem to have noticed the thread yet.

[Nogrod]

I have only managed to get a sort of a grip on what's cookin' here and it will take like two weeks for me to get really involved as cruising through the US takes the energy and time from me right now.

But I do like the idea of making something like the general-rules of BD werewolf, the deviations of which the mods should clearly announce - and be cognizant of themselves.

I would also be happy to join "the committee" ironing them out as I think I have quite a lot of experience on the matter as both a player and a mod. I could actually volunteer to make a draft, but that would be in two weeks' time as we'll be home only on July 21st.


On the discussion concerning the limits for modding...

I came to BD werewolf via the junior-games we had at that time. I'm not sure any separation of that kind should be re-introduced (like in RPG's as someone noted). Nevertheless while I think everyone should be able to play, I also think that the role of the mod requires some basic understanding of and commitment to the game - the latter which also some veterans have occasionally lacked.

So a five played games -requirement? That would sound reasonable. Other requirements surely are too complicated and tricky to come up with in any "objective" way. Although a person who has played five games but has disappeared in every game, or something like that ie. showing a total lack of interest and / or consideration for other players, could be refused to mod until shown some more solid understranding & commitment. But who would draw the line and where? Tricky.

[the phantom]

Other requirements surely are too complicated and tricky to come up with in any "objective" way. Although a person who has played five games but has disappeared in every game, or something like that ie. showing a total lack of interest and / or consideration for other players, could be refused to mod until shown some more solid understranding & commitment. But who would draw the line and where? Tricky.

Not if you just all agree to hand over all authority to me.

At the start of each game the mod can submit his or her rules to me and I judge whether or not they are satisfactory. "You need to clear this up" and "This won't work" and "This is silly, so no"... Long story short I send back an edited version of their rules and only then can the game commence.

And as far as player behavior, I will read games as they are played and on my official "Phantom's Werewolf Judging Thread" I will declare certain behaviors that I witness as being good examples or bad examples. For instance, I could list at the end of each day which members had an amount of participation that was less than desirable. Also, I could point out any behavior that was annoying, and chide noobs for various noob mistakes (public ridicule can be a very effective teaching tool, or at the least can prove highly entertaining to others). In addition, I will hand out yellow cards and red cards via PM. Just like in soccer, a red card would kick a player out of that game and keep him from participating in the following game, where as a yellow card would just be a strong warning.

Example- Lommy comes under suspicion and lashes out at her attackers with an insulting profanity-laced post (you know how she is sometimes). So I send a PM reading "YELLOW CARD- without altering the meaning edit post number XX so that it is appropriate by the end of the day or you will receive a red card and be modfired and banned from the next game as well."

My role on the Downs would be differentiated clearly from that of current game mods by referring to them as "Mod" or "ModGod" and me as "Supreme ModGod", "Eternal Werewolf Ruler ModGod", or "Grand Emperor of Wolvery" (or some other simple little title befitting my humble role).

I am 100% certain that the masses will not adopt this wonderful plan of mine, and I am just as certain that it would function beautifully if given the chance.

You think I'm attempting to goad you into handing me the power just to prove me wrong? Ridiculous. But of course if you don't hand me the power you will be proving Phantom right. Again.

[Boromir88]

Are you Para, phantom? This was your plan from the very beginning, no doubt?

But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it.

For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway.

Banning members from games seems way too over-the top. You don't get banned from the forum for 6 months if you don't post in the Books thread, so like Rikae asked about inappropriate language...why here? And who's going to police that? The Admins won't, and when morm gets busy I doubt that's something he wants to pay attention too (and I'm not letting phantom have that kind of power! ). Yes, we may all get annoyed if someone keeps signing up and then keeps getting mod-fired for not participating, but that's something the Mods have to watch. We don't need any universal banning rules.

I'm running short on time, gotta get to work for another 11 hour day *sigh*. But for organization purposes, maybe we can break this down to...

For all WW-participants: (this will include no inappropriate language, insulting, rules regarding meta-gaming...etc)

For Game Mods: I think having a type of format like the RPG forum would be helpful.

-Something like, ALL 1st posts of the admin threads must include...theme, DL rules, roles (and full explanation of them), list of players, voting rules. Anything else?

For the mod-list:

--------

Getting into banning players for reasons beyond the obvious (like actually breaking forum rules) is a bridge too far.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Why don't we handle the Tolkien-relation like we're going to handle the experimentalism? Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.

I'm not sure I like this system for experimental/traditional games already. It sets up a situation where most people want to mod one type of game, and modding the other becomes a sort of drudgery that someone has to do (I don't understand why so many people seem to want to play traditional games while few seem to want to mod them, but that's how it tends to go).
I would hate to see modding Tolkien-related games become a similar sort of drudgery. I'd say it's better to either always have the same requirement (at least a token Tolkien connection?) or none at all (game mechanics are up to the mod). Really, I'd say "anything goes" with regard to the themes as well, except that this is a Tolkien forum and that was, if I recall correctly, one of the original conditions. Did the BW ever even approve dropping this requirement?
At any rate, there seem to be opinions on both sides, so I'll put in all three possibilities and wait for some agreement to be reached.

Originally Posted by Phantom

In addition, I will hand out yellow cards and red cards via PM. Just like in soccer, a red card would kick a player out of that game and keep him from participating in the following game, where as a yellow card would just be a strong warning.

I like this. One small change, though: I'll be the Supreme ModGod.

[Morsul the Dark]

While I like the idea of making offenders miss the next game etc...

I think if possible the offender should be reported under "Poor Sportsmanship"(Or something to that effect. And the final decision belong to a forum Mod. It's too much power to belong to any one of us.

Also if a Mod Has to be absent Please spell out how the game will continue: For example
"I might be gone day 3 So and So will be substitute mod." It's very confusing and frustrating to out of the blue have someone take over the game.

That's pretty much all I have at the moment... Oh, As for 6 month waiting period for ReModding. I think We should base that on demand to mod.

[Nerwen]

Oh, here's a thing I didn't notice before:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Unless otherwise noted by the mod, players cannot change sides and should play for the side assigned to them throughout the game.

I've seen suggestions that werebears who could no longer win alone "join" the village, and cursed villagers play cobbler from the start; if ordos are not allowed to dub themselves cobblers or form impromptu wolf packs, this sort of thing should be out, too (unless the mod explicitly allows a role to choose sides). You can't police motivations, but at least you won't have players announcing "I decided to change sides!"

No, I don't think we need a rule about how people should play. That's up to them, isn't it?

Werebears, for instance, can help either side, or neither, as they please, and I think we should leave it at that. They can't, however, actually join the village, or the pack– that is, win when they win.

As for the rare cases where a player is aware of being the Cursed from the start, I again think it's much better to leave it up to him or her how to act– in fact, that's the only reason for having such a role. (It's an interesting dilemma: whether to play one's current alignment, or bet on the chance of becoming a wolf eventually.)

With all that, it's still true that players can't change sides, in the sense that they cannot choose their own conditions for victory. If you're a bear, you can only win as a bear, not as a villager. That's what needs to be made clear.

EDIT:X'd with Mith.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

I'm wondering if everyone agrees with this list if it'd be possible to edit it into the first post of the thread... just so we don't repeat rules suggestions and such... I think I might have. It's a strong list by the way good work guys!

[Macalaure]

I don't think banning people from playing for a stretch of time will work. Who would enforce it anyway? A mod can always refuse to let a player with a recent history of offenses join. That should be enough.

I can understand how this batch of rules can be a bit overwhelming, but remember that most of it is really obvious stuff. In fact, it makes life easier for mods and players, since mods don't have to go through all those rules in their admin threads over and over again. We've been gathering rules so far and probably should now head into the phase of simplifying, generalizing, combining rules and dropping undesired ones.

[Macalaure]

I took the liberty to edit the rules collected by Rikae.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Still need a definition of "meta")
13. Players cannot choose their own alignment or conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role and the players have to abide.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.

Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Rules on traditional/experimental and Tolkien-related/non-Tolkien related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.
6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (editing it before the start of the game is possible)
- List of players
- List of roles including each's number. Each role should be defined as detailed as possible.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules for no-shows or inappropriate behavior
7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos



Changes (I hope I'm not going overboard with this):

General Rules
"11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?"
This should be left to the individual mod.

"12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months."
This one seems to be particularly controversial. We indeed should rather err on the side of too few rules, and this should be taken care of by the mods. No mod is forced to let everybody join who wants to join anyway.

Votes and Deadlines
"4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)"
This should be left to the mod to decide. It is also already covered in the Guidelines for Mods.

Guidelines for Mods
"4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related."
This has to be thought over thoroughly first, I guess. It does seem like players prefer mostly traditional and Tolkien-related games, but mods do the opposite. Middle ground to be found.

Part of 6. "If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied."
I understand why lovers caught some extra attention, but it's really just a special case of the general rule to explain one's roles in detail. Secret roles are already mentioned right after this.

Part of 7. "(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)"
Not really necessary, I think.

Part of 8. "If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins."
Already mentioned.

Regarding 10: 30 minutes is rather arbitrary, I admit, but nobody brought up criticism to this one in particular.

Regarding 11: This one could possibly be dropped. Opinions?

I also took out the role descriptions / glossary, since this should be an extra post in the sticky thread. Do you want to start writing it up, Nerwen?


Pretty much all of the remaining rules have been applied explicitly or implicitly before, so I think the list is helpful to newbies and makes a mod's job easier.

-crossed with Fea

[mormegil]

A few things and it echos with what a few others have said. I should have named this General Guidelines instead of rules. There are a few 'rules' that should be covered and these rules are hard and fast but in general I had hoped this would help the new players understand a little bit better what WW is all about and dip them into the culture. I think we could condense this list into more general terms as I've stated such as the Mod is responsible for the definition of roles etc... if secret twists apply that should be announced, that is that there may be some in the game...really Fea said it well enough.

I cannot believe we all missed this. To vote you need to have a ++ before the name of the candidate you are voting for.

I think a glossary of terms would be helpful and could be the third post and would eliminate some of the 'rules' here. I would rather see this as a kinder and more welcoming guideline to newcomers.

I think we need to keep it Tolkien related. The requirement was never dropped but as I said the enforcement of it has been very lax on my part and if the admins ever looked in on this again it may rankle them enough that talk of shutting down WW would occur. (It has in the past)

I think I had other things but I have a meeting I need to run to.

[Mithalwen]

I suppose it is hypocritical of me to agree that there should be a tolkien connection since my first two mod games didn't - however they were in the early days when the players were all primarily Downers rather than werewolfers.

Given that anything off topic is given short shrift elsewhere in the forum it jars rather when you see a host of unfamiliar players and a non-Tolkien themed game... I could understand it if the Admins did feel like that since they are providing a free venue to people who don't contribut to what is a Tolkien site. Of course there are keen werewolfers who do make contributions to the site as a whole and I'm not anti newcomers but it seems that werewolf has moved from being the social side of a serious site to being an end in itself and that is perhaps detrimental to the forum.

[Morsul the Dark]

I disagree... WW can draw people in who then contribute elsewhere... I notice there are other Downers who spend a great deal of time in the RPGs but not elsewhere... I think to get the clutter out of Mirth we could try settng up a seperate section...

I mean we'd be limiting creativity to a point. Now granted my game in itself was nowhere in Tolkien land... so I'm biased but why not do non-Tolkien games? I'm not saying make Books now include Glen Cook and Kafka discussions we're talking about one Small aspect of the site.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by mormegil

.

I cannot believe we all missed this. To vote you need to have a ++ before the name of the candidate you are voting for.

++Mormegil

You just have to explain to the new-comers like this:
Click the # button (found next to the php and quote options)
Erase the word 'CODE' and enter 'HIGHLIGHT' in its place
Hit Submit Reply


I think it would be easer to say highlighted and bolded. It is much easer to find, thus making tallying easer.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

++Mormegil

You just have to explain to the new-comers like this:
Click the # button (found next to the php and quote options)
Erase the word 'CODE' and enter 'HIGHLIGHT' in its place
Hit Submit Reply


I think it would be easer to say highlighted and bolded. It is much easer to find, thus making tallying easer.

Red is not a requirement but bolding is as well as the ++

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As a veteran player as far back as the first BD WW game, I'd like to think I'm important.

Oh who am I kidding... we all know I am.

To put it frankly, the more hoops one has to jump through, the less fun it's going to be for everyone.

I think that rather than compiling a list of rules, we should write up a glossary of terms and traditions. "Ordo: aligned in the final count with the villagers; no special powers." "Wolf: aligned in the final count with the wolves; interacts with the wolves during the Night phase." Not rules, but a general paradigm. The things, basically, that we take for granted, but that new players might not. Not rules of how it should be in a game, but descriptions of how it usually has been.

Therein still lies a risk of somebody saying something in a game (I have most definitely 'played stupid' to gauge reactions) and having an instant, "Fea, please look at page 4 of X Thread where Barrowdowner says "_"." I feel that a great deal of the dynamism and spontaneity of games will be lost if we try too hard to limit understanding of how they *should* work.

However I believe that it is significant to have a couple major standbys.

But I think they can be summarized.

1) Special roles and special rules do not need to be explained (otherwise there goes the secret) but they *should* be announced in a reasonable way. Like, "By the way, there's a secret role." As long as it's understood by the village that there are one or more variables to contend with, it's okay to have unannounced variables.

When performing experiments, scientists require dependent and independent variables because if you have nothing concrete to compare your findings to, then there's no objective way to look at your findings.

Same goes for werewolf: the nature of the roles provides us with dependent variables and we can judge behaviors and evidence accordingly. As long as we know how many bad guys there are, for example, (or as long as we know that we don't know), we are able to measure and surmise.

If we're just told to play and that we'll find out later?

I once modded a game that became a wee bit legendary and I still haven't quite lived that reputation down. It was announced before the game started that I wasn't going to reveal roles upon deaths and that I'd let the village know when the game ended, and that until that point they should do their level best to kill the bad guys.

As the mod, the intention was always to have a last person standing. I'd intended to show that you can find suspicious behavior anywhere, and you can 'prove' without doubt that somebody is evil whether or not they are. I was basically just subverting assumptions that you can objectively do anything. It was a distinctly cerebral game, very philosophical in its approach and its playing out. There were only two wolves because teams didn't matter so much. But when both wolves died within two days? I kept the game going. But there were never any illusions that I wasn't messing with everybody. It was an invitational game and there was full disclosure with each golden ticket that I was tampering with assumptions. I didn't say how, but it was announced that the game was abnormal and that it existed to amuse me.

Basically, I gave the village warning that I knew more than they did about what was going to happen, and I stuck with the one concrete fact that the winner was going to be the last person alive regardless of their role.

But the point was that I announced that something was going to be weird.

I don't think mods should have to give full disclosure on what they plan to surprise the players with, but I do believe they should disclose that a surprise exists.

2) Assume your players have never played before, and describe your roles and rules accordingly.

3) The reason we have mods is to make split second decisions when the unexpected arises. As long as the mod is clearly making a valiant effort toward a fun and fair game, we should fully accept their decision making.

4) Co-mods are okay, as are substitutes, as long as privileged information remains privileged. For instance, if FeaMod can't make deadline, and I call up NiennaOrdo to post that Mira is dead and she was a wolf, I'm not filling in Ni with any information she wouldn't immediately have upon reading that same post I'd write. "Let the village know that-" is one thing. But "Hey NiennaOrdo (who's still alive), would you let SeerLari know that MiraWolf is a wolf, and then RangerRikae needs to choose her protection!"

That? Not so okay. Basically it should probably be assumed that in a pinch, passing on PUBLIC information is okay, whereas any living players should not be made aware of secret information regardless of what the mod is up to. (unless, as mentioned in rule 1, it's already a given that the mod might do this).

--

Basically my suggestions boil down to:

1) you must disclose that you have something to disclose, even if you don't disclose the nature of the disclosure

2) be really detailed in your explanations of rules and roles even if you think everybody already knows what you're talking about

3) don't tell living players anything they're not allowed to know

4) our list of 'rules' shouldn't be rules, but should be assumed definitions that can be ignored at will as long as the mod follows rules 1 and 2.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I like this. One small change, though: I'll be the Supreme ModGod.

So long as you agree to act as my puppet and allow me to rule from the shadows.

But seriously, I think these are the two most important rules. The Great Commandments of Werewolf, if you will-

1) Mods should clearly define all roles and rules in his or her game.

2) Players should read (not skim, but R-E-A-D) the moderator's rules.

I've seen many times where doing those two things responsibly and carefully would have made play more enjoyable or prevented some sort of fiasco. If you don't have enough time in your schedule to read the rules, you should not be playing. I mean, geez, reading the rules is so basic. Sorry if I sound extreme on this, but in my opinion a player should be booted from the game and banned from the next if he acts in such a way that demonstrates he clearly did not read the rules (e.g. votes and then asks, "Do we have retractables?" or asks if there is a Cobbler in the game, or something similarly simple).

As far as enforcing rule number one, I think that would fall to Morm as the mod of this sub-forum, but I imagine he could privately contract Downers to keep an eye out for lists of rules that are incomplete, or clearly won't work for some reason, and these Downers could PM him and point out the problems they believe they have spotted and then Morm can send a PM and tell the Mod what needs to be fixed.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

No, I don't think we need a rule about how people should play. That's up to them, isn't it?

I understand your point, but no. People cannot play any way they wish, and they are not free to choose any side they wish. Deciding to act in a way that is against affiliation throws off the balance of the game that the Mod crafted via role assignments, not to mention it is no more proper to strip away small wins than it is to strip away overall wins. What I mean by that- let's say in a game of dueling wizards the Evil Wizard converts a player that used to be the Good Ranger, and the former Ranger knows the identity of the Seer and Hunter. I'm sorry, but that player despite any lingering feelings of affiliation must act in such a way that is true to his new role as a Wolf, which means he must completely switch sides and spill his guts to the Evil Wizard and rat out his former team mates.

From the Evil Wizard's view- his successful and by-the-rules conversion of a former gifted is a victory. Not the overall game final victory, but a small victory that was gained fairly and justly, and no one should be allowed to rob him of this (in this specific example, the new Wolf cannot just up and decide that it wouldn't be proper and sporting to give away his former companions).

If all of the players are posting and making votes and picks in such a way that assumes certain rules and behaviors, these rules and behaviors must be preserved in order to make the game legitimate. Coming up with strategies and such becomes completely pointless when you have zero assumptions to work with. And honestly, what are we trying to create here with these games- complete and total random chaos? That is no fun whatsoever for most people. The people who do enjoy such things- sorry, but I guess this isn't your place to have fun. To quote from a recent private discussion I had-

Sorry, but I've never seen it as my duty to welcome and ensure everyone has fun playing. That goal is impossible, as the way some people wish to play ruins it for everyone else. Everyone shouldn't play.

[Rikae]

Phantom - good to see someone else sees why it doesn't work to have players switching allegiances. You explained it very well, I think.
The problem is that this is a rule which can't really be enforced and is open to interpretation (but then, so is the meta-reasoning rule). Both are sort of what I would consider matters of good form vs. bad form; I disapprove of meta reasoning and that sort of "switching sides", but I'm not sure whether or not it merits an actual rule.
Anyway, I don't want to dominate this process too much. Some veteran (more so than I) players have expressed concerns about having rules, and the last thing I want to do is participate in forcing rules on people who don't want them. I was thinking primarily of getting newbies up to speed, not cramping people's style... I think I'd better back off, since I have the uncomfortable feeling that I may have caused the problem in the first place by complaining about Paranoia's modding. If most here feel things were going fine and there is no need for rules, they shouldn't have to have them.

[Mithalwen]

I do think a Glossary is sensible. And I have to admit that among the reasons I don't play anymore is that the games have become too complex and divorced from the rest of the forum with games without a notional connection to Tolkien and played by people who do not participate elsewhere.

I don't have time to follown the games usually but given that the catalyst of this discussion only had a small number of posts exclusively in WW, I would have to concede that there should be some restriction on who may mod.

I just feel that rules and committees are a bit "heavy", we will end up having to get SpM back to adjudicate. Maybe call them guidelines/advice? I would be sorry for responsibility for a game to be devolved from the mod to some committee.

Have a glossary by all means, and maybe a check list of things to consider when planning and then let the mod take the consequences.

[Blind Guardian]

as A noobie this Is a great idea. You come on the downs see a game and start playing. Then you ask a million questions in that game thread

I don't mind there being a 5/6 game restriction on modding. (Maybe also take a test to see how well you know the game and the rules?). I agree that mods should list all of the rules in the game (or admin) thread.

Okay that's all I got. Already I have learnt something that I didn't know nor ever thought about