Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[JoltFlame]

I hope for the closing of this long thread and the conclusion that the Black Rider indeed is superior to Gandalf, so is the tale told.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

I hope for the closing of this long thread and the conclusion that the Black Rider indeed is superior to Gandalf, so is the tale told.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you right, particularly since you have lost the debate. I only mention that because it is one of those life lessons one must learn.

[Pitchwife]

Oh Morth, stop being so condescending and flaunting your old age wisdom, please. Even though you're right.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

I hope for the closing of this long thread and the conclusion that the Black Rider indeed is superior to Gandalf, so is the tale told.

By Jackson, yes. By Tolkien, no.
Seriously, listen to this:

Originally Posted by Lotr Book V, The Siege of Gondor

'You cannot enter here', said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

Does he sound like he's dreading to be outmatched by a superior power? Does he sound like he's just making bold words and whistling in the dark? Or does he sound like he knows he's in for a confrontation that will demand all his strength but is confident that he will prevail?
At any rate he certainly doesn't sound like the pathetic excuse for an Istar PJ chose to show us.

[Inziladun]

In the books, Gandalf overthrew one of Morgoth's Balrogs, though his physical body died in the process.

In the books, the Witch-king was wounded by a Hobbit with a Barrow-blade, and finished off by a woman with an ordinary sword.

That was after Gandalf fought off all nine of the Nazgûl at once at Weathertop.

Now, PJ had things quite a bit different is his mind, but in Tolkien's world, it's Gandalf hands down.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the books, Gandalf overthrew one of Morgoth's Balrogs, though his physical body died in the process.

In the books, the Witch-king was wounded by a Hobbit with a Barrow-blade, and finished off by a woman with an ordinary sword.

That was after Gandalf fought off all nine of the Nazgûl at once at Weathertop.

Now, PJ had things quite a bit different is his mind, but in Tolkien's world, it's Gandalf hands down.

True that.

[alatar]

But like I've been told a billion times, PJ's adaptation is not exactly Tolkien's world. My problem, however, since that fateful day with the extended version of RotK came out, is that, even at first blush, PJ's world did not appear to be internally consistent.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the books, Gandalf overthrew one of Morgoth's Balrogs, though his physical body died in the process.

Note that it the movie it's just 'a Balrog,' though not just more than man-high. You'd think that taking down this creature, as we see in TTT, it'd count for something to Gandalf's credit.

In the books, the Witch-king was wounded by a Hobbit with a Barrow-blade, and finished off by a woman with an ordinary sword.

Note that in the movie, Merry's blade is not magical or extraordinary in any way, yet can still pierce the unseen sinews of the Witch-King.

That was after Gandalf fought off all nine of the Nazgûl at once at Weathertop.

Note that Aragorn chased five - FIVE - of them away (one of which was the Witch-King) from Weathertop using a non-Anduril sword and some fiery pieces of wood.

Now, PJ had things quite a bit different is his mind, but in Tolkien's world, it's Gandalf hands down.

But this is the movie section.

[Dakêsîntrah]

Let me add that I will give credit to Peter in at least trying to avoid the cliché depiction of the all mighty good guy wizard who fears nothing!

I mean, c'mon, since Tolkien's day, this has been portrayed at least a dozen times in other fantasy works and movies.

It would be about as interesting as Superman taking on the world minus the kryptonite!

This is why Batman's so much more immensely popular: Since his mortal flaws are sometimes exposed, it makes for an interesting showdown with the villains.

The old man is merely a suit of Olorin, the real being, and I could care less if the mortal body might be seen quailing.

To me, it's not a matter of who's superior, it's really an analysis on the nature of Olorin's body/spirit.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

Let me add that I will give credit to Peter in at least trying to avoid the cliché depiction of the all mighty good guy wizard who fears nothing!

That might have been a good idea had we not seen this same wizard fight a Balrog while falling through the earth.

I mean, c'mon, since Tolkien's day, this has been portrayed at least a dozen times in other fantasy works and movies.

Agreed, though I have two issues with that: (1) you *expect* a wizardly bearded figure to be the one to 'save the day,' (or at least I would say current culture might) and (2) this wizard is *Gandalf*, meaning that it's just not some generic wizard but one we know all about.

It would be about as interesting as Superman taking on the world minus the kryptonite!

Cool analogy! Have you ever seen the movie 'Superman II?' Regardless, Superman's weakness in that movie isn't kryptonite, but his feelings for the lowly humans that infest the planet. The three bad superbeings use Superman's attachment to Lois Lane to get at him.

Could anyone think of a way where we would avoid the wizard cliche, have Gandalf portrayed as powerfully as he is in the books *and* yet allow for his character not to overshine the story in this kryptoniteless world?

This is why Batman's so much more immensely popular: Since his mortal flaws are sometimes exposed, it makes for an interesting showdown with the villains.

That part was played by 'take off his head' Aragorn...

The old man is merely a suit of Olorin, the real being, and I could care less if the mortal body might be seen quailing.

But what about all of the 'drivel' he spouted to Pippin? About 'this' not being the end?

Originally Posted by Gandalf and Pip (from the RotK script)

ANGLE ON: GANDALF and PIPPIN sit on stone steps . . . Both covered in sweat and grime, bone-weary from fighting, spirits and hearts bruised . . .
PIPPIN looks towards the WOODEN GATES at which a NUMBER of SOLDIERS continue to build a BARRICADE . . .

PIPPIN
(quiet) I didn't think it would end this way . . .

GANDALF looks at the SMALL HOBBIT a beat.

GANDALF
(gently) End? No, the journey doesn't end here.

PIPPIN looks up at GANDALF, questioningly . . . .

GANDALF (cont'd)
Death is just another path, one that we all must take.

ANGLE ON: GANDALF looks down to see PIPPIN looking up at him with fear in his eyes . . .

GANDALF (cont'd)
(remembering) The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass . . .
(to himself) and then you see it . . .

ANGLE ON: GANDALF breaks off, lost in reverie . . .

PIPPIN
What, Gandalf? See what?

GANDALF
White shores ... And beyond . . . A far green country under a swift sunrise.

PIPPIN stares up at the OLD WIZARD'S FACE, softened, quiet and full of peace . . .

PIPPIN
(quiet) Well, that isn't so bad.

GANDALF
(gently) No . . . No, it isn't.

BOOM!

ANGLE ON: GANDALF and PIPPIN'S faces turn as the WOODEN DOORS shudder under another BLOW.

Again, to me it's a matter of consistency. Either Gandalf believes what he said, and so would be at peace, or not.