Galadriel

[morwen edhelwen]

[QUOTE=Gorthaur the Cruel;631402]There was no death for Celebrian. She left for Valinor after that terrible ordeal at the Redhorn pass.[/QUOTE
Yes. i forgot..but didn't Tolkien write somewhere that Elf-women could die from being attacked by Orcs? Can someone confirm the truth of this? Celebrian did not die.. but she could have, couldn't she? -Morwen Edhelwen.

[elbenprincess]

elf maidens would die if they are raped by someone. And I don´t believe she was raped, "just" tortured.

[Pitchwife]

Well, we don't really know what atrocities Orcish methods of torturing captive Elven women did or didn't include (and I don't really want to know), but considering that Celebrían's need for healing was so overwhelming that she abandoned her husband and children for it, she must have suffered something extremely traumatizing.

[morwen edhelwen]

Yeah...

[Nerwen]

Morwen, I'm really not clear what point you're trying to make about Celebrían's "death". Whether or not she could have died, the fact remains that she... you know... didn't.

elbenprincess– regarding the bit about "rape = death for Elves". This is a "rule" that's puzzled me for a while. It's very often cited (especially by fan-fic authors attacking each others' work ), but anyone know the source? Was it a lasting element of Tolkien's legendarium (that I've never picked up), or just something he scribbled on the back of an envelope? The only reference I know of is the first draft of "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" (Note 5 to the main text in "Morgoth's Ring"):

But among all these deeds there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos.

In the next version Tolkien revised this passage to:

Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of any deeds of lust among them.

No mention of "rape = death".

So, if that's where it comes from, it's pretty clearly a passing idea that the author soon rejected.

Or is there another, more authoritative source? Anyone know?

[Erendis]

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

However,let me wonder on that question:If that was a fact,then how did the first Orcs aka Tortured and Corrupted Elves multiply?Does that imply that even Orcs had some feelings left at their dawn?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Curse Wikipedia as the only source of informations!

No,apart from those two you have mentinned,I at least cannot recall another one citing that rape would lead an Elf to abandon its hröa.

In that case it may be an example of the kind of thing that has led me to abandon Middle-earth-based fan-fiction. There's plenty of complaints about winged Mary Sues riding pink unicorns– but their critics can be annoying too. Some will lay down the law about what is, or isn't, "canon" on the basis of out-of-context quotes, or downright weird interpretations that I suspect would have startled Tolkien himself considerably. (Did you know Elves don't need to eat?)

...Anyway, I think this has got seriously off-topic. Sorry about that.