What is your heroic ideal?

[Nogrod]

The one thing I have entertained in my mind sometimes is that is Boromir (the one whose every action is depicted in the books) true to "Boromir" (the "character" he is in the books before the last events) in the way Tolkien handles him in that death-scene of his?

There is a question to be made, whether a captain of Gondor so keen to save Minas Tirith with all costs, would go for the seemingly futile suicide trying to save two hobbits of no consequence or value to Minas Tirith? (And please note, it's not me and my values talking here, but how Tolkien had made Boromir to be, and the discrepancy one can see within the inner logic of him portrayed by the prof.!)

Also the fact that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas decide to go after the two in that dreadful situation just feels odd and / or unbelivable to me. Why follow two insignificant hobbits when there is a real war pouring in? So either after the Ring-bearer or to muster a war... those would have been the choices laid in front of them. But no, they decide to just run after two hobbits taken by the Uruks? That makes no sense for a king to come. "Heh, I'll just avoid these big issues I should decide on and go for the side-track so that no one notices me..."

I mean yes, you can make fine points on how that was meant to happen - and it's clear that was the case looking at the basic storyline. But wasn't Tolkien here bending his characters in favour of the plot he had in mind? Boromir included? So he had to find room for providence (or fatalism) even if it twisted his characters?

And to come to the point, didn't he make Boromir a different kind of a hero he was? From the "mighty public hero of good" into the "private defender of the few close to him"?

I can see the Christian ramifications here and will not wish to bring them to the fore more than this: did Tolkien change Boromir in the end to allow him to become a Christian hero instead of the pagan hero he was before?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also the fact that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas decide to go after the two in that dreadful situation just feels odd and / or unbelivable to me. Why follow two insignificant hobbits when there is a real war pouring in? So either after the Ring-bearer or to muster a war... those would have been the choices laid in front of them. But no, they decide to just run after two hobbits taken by the Uruks? That makes no sense for a king to come. "Heh, I'll just avoid these big issues I should decide on and go for the side-track so that no one notices me..."

As I was discussing here, perhaps Aragorn knew (after seeing Boromir, most likely knowing the toll the Ring took on Galadriel, and the temptation it presented to Gandalf) that if he stayed in the company of the Ring, he too would be corrupted.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The one thing I have entertained in my mind sometimes is that is Boromir (the one whose every action is depicted in the books) true to "Boromir" (the "character" he is in the books before the last events) in the way Tolkien handles him in that death-scene of his?

There is a question to be made, whether a captain of Gondor so keen to save Minas Tirith with all costs, would go for the seemingly futile suicide trying to save two hobbits of no consequence or value to Minas Tirith? (And please note, it's not me and my values talking here, but how Tolkien had made Boromir to be, and the discrepancy one can see within the inner logic of him portrayed by the prof.!)

Also the fact that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas decide to go after the two in that dreadful situation just feels odd and / or unbelivable to me. Why follow two insignificant hobbits when there is a real war pouring in? So either after the Ring-bearer or to muster a war... those would have been the choices laid in front of them. But no, they decide to just run after two hobbits taken by the Uruks? That makes no sense for a king to come. "Heh, I'll just avoid these big issues I should decide on and go for the side-track so that no one notices me..."

I mean yes, you can make fine points on how that was meant to happen - and it's clear that was the case looking at the basic storyline. But wasn't Tolkien here bending his characters in favour of the plot he had in mind? Boromir included? So he had to find room for providence (or fatalism) even if it twisted his characters?

And to come to the point, didn't he make Boromir a different kind of a hero he was? From the "mighty public hero of good" into the "private defender of the few close to him"?

I can see the Christian ramifications here and will not wish to bring them to the fore more than this: did Tolkien change Boromir in the end to allow him to become a Christian hero instead of the pagan hero he was before?

Well, there are few things to consider.

First, the general thing about why all of them (Boromir, Legolas, Gimli...) would stay, one factor is friendship. It has not been such a long time together for them, but they went through quite dramatic experiences. I don't know any people who have some experiences of being together in a war or in prison or something, but I would imagine if you go through something like that along with somebody else, it creates rather strong bonds. And such a stressful experience like being on the brink of death several times (esp. Watcher in the Water, the dark Moria, Orcs and Balrog) is certainly immesurable times more memorable. That much at least for Legolas and Gimli (not to speak of Aragorn, even, who's been around there for longer time even with the Riders), remember all their very colorfully portrayed reactions when they saw the Hobbits alive and well, or the words uttered during the pursuit, like Legolas': "The thought of those merry young folk driven like cattle burns my heart." There is obvious personal affection for the Hobbits, also in case of Legolas and Gimli, I can imagine their thinking being slightly different from normal human thinking: Legolas not being so "calculative" (he's a prince of Mirkwood, but never ever I see him thinking about that, he's just here and now one of the Nine), Gimli again probably having some deeper codes of honor (all Dwarves seem like that to me - sort of very "personal" in some ways - think Thorin or Balin). Aragorn then was just used to do things like this (I am the Ranger, the protector of innocents), and there was also his sort of uncertainity and feeling that he failed as the leader, and without Boromir, the idea of going to Minas Tirith was probably making him uncomfortable at least. I can believe that this was genuinely the moment of crisis for him. Nevertheless, when deciding, there was probably this "Christian part" of him winning over cold rationality, as you say, not wishing to get the Hobbits tortured and killed, and rejecting the possibility of just giving them up and heading for "what has to be done". Of all people, Aragorn is probably the easiest to imagine to think like that, but this really strikes be as deeply Christian if anything else: going totally against the "worldly logic", believing that Minas Tirith will not fall even though rationally it would be the best to have as long time as possible to help to build its defenses (though again, what could he do at this point, coming as a King might do more harm than good). Maybe there's also wisdom in that, and some sort of freedom given by this mode of thinking: as that leads to realising that effectively, Minas Tirith does not depend on one Aragorn, even though he might be a King. There is something more immediate where he can help, though. And still he can have the faith that eventually, his steps will lead to Minas Tirith - even though he does not see exactly the way. If anything, that's actually perfect illustration of the steps of faith one takes as a Christian (I can confirm that).

Back to the question of whether this would be "in character" for some of the guys. Another answer to this, of course, you are giving yourself. If it's Christian, then there are people even in this primary world - (some) Christians, "explicite" or "implicite" ones - who would act like that, so it is not by any means illogical. With some characters it is a bit easier to imagine them acting in such a way, with some it may be harder as it is not as "natural" for them, but you also have to bear in mind that they were sort of "under the influence" of e.g. Gandalf for a long time (meaning: having him around, seeing his manners, actions, everything, which is bound to leave an impact - that's said from the Christian point of view, which, even if you don't believe it works like that yourself, Tolkien certainly did believe it that way, so in his inner logic it certainly works).

And so at last, Boromir, I believe in the end, also understood something. I am not sure if he understood the sort of underlying truth - that in the end, the fate of Middle-Earth is not in the hands of the strong whatever he does, and that the war against Sauron must be won by other means. But what he understood - or at least at that very moment - was that the power of arms is not the most important thing now: by his actions, actually, now whether he liked it or not, the fate was with the Ringbearer. He knew that - being at the Council and in the Fellowship everything - the fate of Middle-Earth will be decided by the Ring, okay, either by some Gondorian Lord taking it to defeat Sauron, or by some Hobbit casting it to the Fire, but now after his vain attempt to convince Frodo, the first option was gone. Also, I would think that Boromir understood after his experience that he, or no Man like that, can bear the Ring, seeing how it corrupts - Boromir obviously acknowledged that there was something wrong, that it was not really him acting (cf. his words "What have I said? What have I done? A madness took me, but it has passed!"). We can be left to speculate what would Boromir do had he lived on. Maybe he will give in to despair, thinking that Frodo has no chance, but there is no chance to reach and find him anymore, and he could end up something like Éomer when he was crying "Death! Death!" on Pelennor.

Which turns to the last thing and sort of ties the loose ends: maybe this actually was part of Boromir's motivation, too. I could very, very well imagine his frustration, the feeling of guilt, the despair and the sort of more pagan-ish decision (here you go ) to drown it in death. As in: I am utterly guilty, how can I redeem myself? (Maybe even the suppressed thought haunting him somewhere in the back of his head, but which he would really not like to admit to start thinking of consciously: "Have I now caused Frodo to leave alone? He has no chances - have I caused all this? Have I caused his death? And then Sauron gets the Ring - have I caused the fall of all?" I think you can imagine this.) So basically these mixed feelings, half-despair half-wish to do at least something, saving one Hobbit if he could not save another, so to say; also the wish to fulfil Aragorn's wish (who, sort of, offered him a kind of redemption: "I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo." In his state of mind, I believe Boromir would regard this as an important thing to fulfil this last command - and definitely even in general, he was the soldier of Gondor, and he would obey such a command, when he was given one; and he held Aragorn in high esteem, as we are told, so he would even take it as a command from his liege).

And all in all, the decision to go back to Minas Tirith would have to be made either before coming back to the camp at all (which does not make that much sense, since if Boromir repented, he wanted to return, and he himself said that he hoped to find Frodo back there), or then after Aragorn's command was given - thus, disobeying him. I cannot imagine the soldier Boromir turning into a coward with the utilitarian excuse "I have to just stay alive to go and save my city". That'd really be totally against the portrayal of Boromir as we know him. Also, he would have to make that decision in the short amount of time after he saw the Orcs running at Merry and Pippin, which, with all respect, sounds even more ridiculous (I am now imagining this picture from children's animated cartoons, where somebody runs, then sees the enemies are too many, "brakes" and says "um... whatever guys", and then turns around and runs away). Last but not least, under such circumstances - and especially with the shock and guilt of what he experienced just a while ago - you don't really think in calculative rational way, but rather irrationally and impulsively. Hence attacking the Orcs (let's not forget, also, that originally there were not as many, probably, and only later "reinforcements" arrived - at which point there probably was no turning back).

And if somebody does not like long posts, sorry... it was not my idea *points at Nog*

[Mithalwen]

Faramir has always been my beau ideal (as well as a beau sabreur who made a beau geste). In fact he is at least the second best hero in my knowledge of literature (may be pipped by Kester Woodseaves who has similarly great qualities but is of much lower birth, which seems to me he should get credit for). Faramir is a verray parfit gentil knight and loves Eowyn for her inner self rather than her beauty.

However Beleg and Felagund score highly on the laying down your life for your unworthy friends scale (maybe a reason I hate Beren and Luthien so much is that I blame them for Finrod's death?) and Elrond's personal sacrifice when he might have done otherwise always seems heroic to me.

[Inziladun]

I think, out of all the characters I admire for various reasons, my 'hero' would be Frodo.

He accepted the burden of the Ring, first, with Gandalf's urging, agreeing to take the Ring to Rivendell. Arguably, he at that time knew little of the dangers he would face, but still: he did what he did out of love for his homeland, and he had no expectation of any kind of reward, not even great honour and glory.
At the Council of Elrond, after having endured many frightening and unexpected events, including nearly becoming a wraith for ever in the service of Sauron, he still agreed to take the Ring and bear it to Mordor, if he could. Again, he had no reward dangling in front of him; no promises of money of renown. He belived Elrond and Gandalf when they said he was meant to be the Ring-bearer, so he answered the call. That time, he had a much greater idea of the sort of perils that might await him, and he still did not hesitate when the moment of decision came.
I really admire that sort of courage and devotion to 'duty'. For duty was what he accepted: that he and he alone was the one chosen to get the Ring as far as he could, to leave all that he had known behind, as far as he knew, forever.

To aid him, he had no native 'angelic' power, as did Gandalf. He did not have the strength or fighting prowess of Boromir, or the sense of tradition as an enemy of Sauron. He lacked the motive of romantic love that helped Aragorn stay on the right path. Sam, Merry, and Pippin had the simple love and friendship of Frodo to drive them, but Frodo himself had no such inspiration. It seems to me that he was ultimately alone, and had nothing to guide him but his own sense of 'right', and he disregarded all else to follow that ideal.

Others were willing to lay down their lives for the cause, but it seems to me they had various props and comforts to aid them, and Frodo alone did not.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Wow. It's amazing how people read the same book and come up with so many different and colorful interpretations of the text. Even something as predictable as 'who do you think is the hero?' comes up with so many varied answers: Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Beleg, Turin, Feanor, Faramir, Boromir, Fingolfin, Gandalf...

And as for Frodo, I must admit that I never thought of him as a hero, which is strange because he is the de facto main character and the ringbearer with the fate of middle-earth on his shoulders. In my mind heroes (1) either die tragically in the moment of their victory, or (2) courageously live on after their adventure is over. Instead, Frodo is broken forever. Examples of (1) are King Theoden or Boromir. Examples of (2) are Sam, who marries (I do not remember her name, but a cute holbytlan lass) and settles down to a quiet and happy domestic life, and King Elessar and Faramir as well. However, the cycle of life is denied to Frodo; he does not die or live on, but exists as a grey wraith, a scar on his heart that will never heal.
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