sauron winning?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me the issue would not so much be the Valar's inability to help--but the fact that, if they did help, the Third Age would end just the same as the First and Second--with a cataclysm of epic proportions that would hurt the very people it was trying to help.

My first thought was something quite similar - as Sauron's dominion in the Third Age extended over a much larger part of Middle-earth than Morgoth's in the First, any intervention by the Valar along the lines of War of Wrath Reloaded might have escalated to a continent-wide war which would lay most of the habitable world in ruins. On second thought I realized that they wouldn't actually have had to militarily scour all Rhûn and Near & Far Harad - all they had to do was to get through to Barad-dûr and deal with Sauron himself, which should have been feasible, especially if they acted promptly, while there still was some resistance to him in the West and they wouldn't have had to fight their way all the leagues from the Havens. Once Sauron was overcome, his misled human followers could have been reeducated and (to use a 20th century metaphor) 'denazified', like the Dunlendings after Helm's Deep and the fall of Orthanc.
The bigger problem is that, while Morgoth's forces in the First Age consisted chiefly of Orcs, Trolls, dragons and fallen Maiar, Sauron's in the Third comprised whole nations of Men, and I think we can take it for granted that he would have thrown every available bit of cannon-fodder into their way, so the Valinorean Cavalry could (and probably would) have been facing the necessity to slaughter Ilúvatar's Younger Children by hundred thousands - hurting the very people they were trying to help, as Mnemo put it so well. And as we learn from the Fall of Númenor, the Valar felt the Second-Born were under Eru's personal jurisdiction, so His permission would certainly have been needed.
But even if it was given, this would have been an extremely desperate measure. As Legate and Mnemo said, Mortal Men (including Hobbits) needed to grow up and learn to deal with evil in whatever guise themselves, without overt help from Higher Powers.

[Joseph]

Wow thanks for all your detailed answers to my questions I had forgotten about just how strong Melkor was thank god (as many elves and men i`m sure did) that the Valar won and he was cast out into the void.
I suppose that maybe Ilúvatar could have directly intervened with Sauron had he won maybe?
I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?
Thanks once again for all your help with the answers to the questions I have pitchwife Mnemosyne and Legate of Amon Lanc.
Regards
Joseph

[Faramir Jones]

Welcome to the Downs, Joseph!

You asked a very interesting question here:

Originally Posted by Joseph

I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?

Tolkien had this to say about the end of the world in Quenta Silmarillion:

31. Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
32. Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien and she will break them, and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.(The History of Middle-earth: V. The Lost Road, p. 333.)

I remember grinning when I first read this, at the fact that Túrin and his family will have their revenge.

[Inziladun]

That's from the Second Prophecy of Mandos in HOME, isn't it Faramir? Fascinating, indeed, and I also like the idea of Túrin dealing Morgoth his death blow However, Túrin might have a problem.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

However, Túrin might have a problem.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

I don't think there's a problem. By comparison with a Man being brought back from the dead, fixing a sword is easy.

[Andsigil]

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!



Okay, so depending on your opinion of Bombadil that may have made things worse, but a girl's gotta try.

In all seriousness I have to reject this statement because it doesn't take into account the general decline of things that's supposed to happen in the transition from the Elder Days to the Middle to these the Youngest--namely, everything is supposed to get lamer. Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yes, Sauron may still be floating around as a disempowered spirit, but he can't be everywhere at once, and the little power that Tolkien attributes him when asked about this sort of thing isn't nearly enough to account for all the evil in the world. By the Third Age, even, evil is not as monolithic as it once was (if it ever was monolithic in Tolkien: cf. the ambiguity surrounding Ungoliant)--Saruman is not so much corrupted by Sauron as by his own ambition (if you think he was, you've been watching too much Jackson), and then we've got the blackened heart of Old Man Willow and the petty characters like Ted Sandyman and Lotho Baggins. If you want to point to Morgoth as the source of all of this, since he essentially sang evil into the world, I'll buy that--but not Sauron.

Fast forward to today, where evil is not hooded, cloaked, and riding on black horses, but micromanaged at the bureaucrat's desk or carelessly pursued by the young rake or unwittingly accepted by the decent gal who just doesn't have the time to help out right now. The difference between the Elder Days and the Younger is that our struggles are not as epic--but they're still important, possibly more so because we never know whence the next attack will come. The important thing is that if we acknowledge this kind of struggle as going on today, we have to acknowledge also the pure Joy that emanates from Tolkien--even in the bleakest moments of the Silmarillion we get the beauty of Beren and Luthien and the hope of Earendil's rising--made still more wondrous by the contrast of all the darkness that surrounds them--and find the ways that they, too, resonate in our world.

They cannot conquer for ever!