Imagine no religion

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by skip spence

. And although there's little religious practice in LotR, there certainly is a deeply religious undertone in the book.

Very true. I would perhaps look at it another way, to make a distinction between religion and spirituality. While there is little organised religion in LotR, what does stand out is a deep spirituality. Religion is about rules and organisation and control but spirituality is about relationships with something larger than oneself.

All of the major characters--Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Arwen--display this powerful sense of relating to something larger than themselves. Merry and Pippin learn this. Possibly Eowyn also. Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron. Isildur, for instance, didn't get it. Nor did Boromir, until too late, but Faramir understood.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Very true. I would perhaps look at it another way, to make a distinction between religion and spirituality. While there is little organised religion in LotR, what does stand out is a deep spirituality. Religion is about rules and organisation and control but spirituality is about relationships with something larger than oneself.

Yeah you're right, spirituality is a better word to describe it.

Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron.

Here I would disagree though. For reasons I think I explained above, I would almost equate wisdom with this spirituality you speak of, and they, together with Gandalf, are the wisest people about.

[Bêthberry]

[QUOTE=skip spence;622258]Yeah you're right, spirituality is a better word to describe it.

Well, I wasn't meaning to suggest just a better word, but a concept that might be more encompassing for what exists in LotR. What is it that prompts Frodo to accept the burden of carrying the Ring? What is it that prompts Sam to accompany him? What helps Eowyn recover? I think this is a very interesting question to ask about Middle-earth, and I tried to rep the thread but alas I haven't been generous enough since last I repped you.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Here I would disagree though. For reasons I think I explained above, I would almost equate wisdom with this spirituality you speak of, and they, together with Gandalf, are the wisest people about.

Well, it depends on which book we are discussing, LotR, The Silm, etc., because the elves differ very much in those two books.

The elves have failed in LotR. Despite all the wisdom--ie, knowledge of ancient times--we are told they have, their time is passing and while they can support and aid Frodo's journey to destroy the Ring, their presence in Middle-earth is doomed. Gandalf might indeed be a pillar of wisdom, but that is because he seems able to understand what is or might be necessary to accomplish his role. Widsom can also mean awareness to understand what is needful, and by that meaning, Frodo caps them all. But perhaps this is straying away from your point about the lack of formal religious observances.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The elves have failed in LotR. Despite all the wisdom--ie, knowledge of ancient times--we are told they have, their time is passing and while they can support and aid Frodo's journey to destroy the Ring, their presence in Middle-earth is doomed. Gandalf might indeed be a pillar of wisdom, but that is because he seems able to understand what is or might be necessary to accomplish his role. Widsom can also mean awareness to understand what is needful, and by that meaning, Frodo caps them all. But perhaps this is straying away from your point about the lack of formal religious observances.

You seem to indirectly be saying that by obeying the wish of the One in taking the Ring, as he was 'meant' to do, Fordo is worshipping Ilúvatar. By the same token, Gandalf and Galadriel are doing the same by their aiding of the One's designs for Middle-earth. Having the wisdom to accept one's place in the world and to do good because one knows they ought to is worship enough.
Would that knowledge and acceptance supersede the need for organised worship in those who are 'good'? If not, why is it that the sole instance of 'community' worship in a dedicated building is that in Númenor with the Satantic / Melkor cult started by Sauron? I think that must be significant somehow.