Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It seemed no more than a flashy parlor trick to me.

So we can take him to be "some conjurer of cheap tricks!"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So we can take him to be "some conjurer of cheap tricks!"

Actually, yes, when it comes to it. Think about any direct combat between the Nazgul and any foe that showed no fear: the WiKi/Nazgul fled from Glorfindel on two occasions, five Nazgul ran from Aragorn on Weathertop when the Ring was in their grasp, several more Nazgul were driven off by Gandalf at Weathertop and again in Gondor. Their primary weapon is fear. When faced by a foe who is fearless, the Nazgul flee, even when outnumbering their opponent. In the book, The WitchKing at the Gate of Minas Tirith tried to instill fear in Gandalf, but it did not work. Not even Shadowfax was fearful.

As I referred to previously, the WiKi's stunt with the flaming sword was the Middle-earth equivalent of a bully flexing his muscles. I've faced opponents like that and beat the snot out of them. Gandalf remains still and calm, watching for the opponent's next move, which is what one is taught to do in aikido, jiu-jitsu and other martial arts.

[Sarumian]

Dakêsîntrah,
I’m afraid you overestimate the potential of

a spirit neither living nor dead

who appears almost invulnerable in your version. But it seems to me that the shadowy being as it is couldn’t be very much more potent than some bodiless spirit like Sauron himself after his Ring was destroyed. In Dante’s Divina Comedia sinners’ souls are given some quasi-body – they are ‘shadows’. Shadow is incapable of making any physical impact on anything else, but can remember things and suffer from a physical torture. The spirit of Witch King is tied to his invisible flesh by Sauron’s spell, bound to a Ring of Power. Witch King exercises magic power according to his spiritual potency, most of which is provided by his Master. It is basically some amount of Sauron’s own power that keeps Witch King “alive”, active and powerful and protects him from many perils, until the bound is broken by the counter-spell of Mery’s blade.
Unlike to Witch King Gandalf has a human body which is not protected from suffering, but the crucial thing is that Gandalf can stay alive by his own will. Let me stress this, it is HE who decides whether he should carry on or pass. So his life depends on his own spiritual power and however wounded he was he would die only if all this power had been spent. Due to this, I believe, there was no total separation between

Gandalf's bodily authority

and

Olorin's authority as a Maia

but the former was rather based on the latter, which was, however, unknown to most people of Middle Earth. As a man with Maia’s immortal spirit, Gandalf didn’t have any reason to be afraid of death. He also didn’t fear suffering and pain as his combat with Balrog had shown. But in the scene we are talking about Gandalf’s will appears to be totally paralised. Does this make sense?
And now let’s make some calculation. Sauron took some capable men, made them dreadful and kept them alive for ages. Morgoth took some initially immortal Maiar, much more powerful then mortals, and turned them into dreadful Balrogs. Gandalf’s spirit was powerful enough to endure a long combat with such an enemy, but when Witch King approached him in the movie, he lost completely and in one moment. We know as well, that almost all Witch King’s power comes from Sauron. So can we estimate how much of Sauron’s power should’ve been invested into Witch King to suppress the spirit of the other powerful Maia? I can’t measure it in per cents but I’m sure it is the amount that Sauron would never have dared to hand out to any creature, especially after his disastrous experiment with the Ring. It seems to me that Nazgul can be useful for Sauron only if they don’t have power to clame the Ring, otherwise they'd become very dangerous servants.
This is why I think that Witch King couldn’t posess such a power to break Gandalf’s will and the movie scene doesn’t fit into Tolkien’s universe. However I’d like to thank

Dakêsîntrah

for introducing some interesting points.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

It is basically some amount of Sauron’s own power that keeps Witch King “alive”, active and powerful and protects him from many perils

After some consideration I have to correct this point: it was the ring of Power which was responible for 'runing' a wraith, so there was not only Sauron's power, but also power of elf-smiths involved.

However neither of them could create someone comparable to a maia without loosing too much of thir own essence, I believe.

[aldredheron]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and argue a position I don't agree with with.That position is PJ is right to weaken Gandalf because by doing so he increases the heroism of the humans (Aragorn and Eowyn). The fact that Gandalf loses to the Witch-King shows how heroic Eowyn was in standing up to him. The fact Gandalf is hesitant gives Aragorn a chance to assume the role of leader. Now I could almost live with this position if it wasn't for the fact that Aragorn then turns around and tries to confront Sauron with the palantir and ends up running from the orb like a coward.
I think PJ tries to humanize everyone too much and they come off looking weak a great deal. The human element in LotR has, for me, always been the hobbits. Heck, by the end of RotK in the book Aragorn is only ever called Elassar (sp?) and seems much more removed. But it is the hobbits that symbolize the reader in the book, they are normally the ones that you can most relate to in the books.

[alatar]

aldredheron, Welcome to the Downs!

Originally Posted by aldredheron

The fact that Gandalf loses to the Witch-King shows how heroic Eowyn was in standing up to him.

That would be true if Eowyn was shown to be heroic. Sure, she takes out the Witch-King, the biggest baddest Boss in this level.

Then what happens? She runs, limps away from the Gimpy Gothmog, a mere Orc, and is saved only by the action of another (Aragorn's).

So is she the bomb or what? My issue is that I wish PJ would make up his mind.

[Sarumian]

Hello aldredheron,

That's a good point, and though it has been discussed somewhere in the thread, I like the way you formulate it. Let me repeat shortly what I tried to say in my previous posts.

The fact Eowyn withstands Witch King makes her undoubtedly heroic, as she is a human and is not supposed to bear such a terror, so Gandalf doesn't need to loose in order to stress this. But Gandalf's failure makes her some sort of Hollywood superhero who wins whenever it is scheduled in the script regardless how silly it could look. If she was able to dispatch such an enemy, why not to deal with Sauron in the same way?

Let me bring here this quote from the other forum:

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12663

vgunn

A bit more is mentioned by Tolkien in his letters. Here is something from #156.

Quote:

"He [Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'. ..... He [Gandalf] alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed – and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands."

Moreover, without making Eowyn more heroic, PJ makes Gandalf look completely ridiculous, after the latter describes himself in The Two Towers as the most dangerous creature in ME save for Sauron. Having said that Gandalf is not able to withstand Witch King. Very silly.

On top of that the scene makes a great confusion about the course of events in ME. We know that the power of Witch King is provided by Sauron. In order to switch off another maia, Sauron needed to invest most of his remaining power into the Black Captain; as someone wrote in other forum, he, in fact, had to inhabit Witch King's body. In this case Witch King's preliminary end would have been as disastrous for Sauron as the loss of the Ring. He would definitely have lost the ability to keep his numerous armies in obedience and probably his shadowy embodiment as well. Nothing like this happens neither in the book nor in the movie.

There was also an idea that PJ made Gandalf a lesser being than an angelic spirit of maia, so he didn't supersede Witch King in power. However, Gandalf says in The Two Towers that his name was Olorin and in The Felowship he courteously introduces himself to Balrog as a wielder of the flame of Anor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Fire

I am referring to PJ's movies, not to books only. If Gandalf is not an embodiment of maia Olorin, we can't say who Sauron is etc, the whole Tolkien's universe will not work and it's going to be a different fiction.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by aldredheron

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and argue a position I don't agree with with.That position is PJ is right to weaken Gandalf because by doing so he increases the heroism of the humans (Aragorn and Eowyn). The fact that Gandalf loses to the Witch-King shows how heroic Eowyn was in standing up to him. The fact Gandalf is hesitant gives Aragorn a chance to assume the role of leader. Now I could almost live with this position if it wasn't for the fact that Aragorn then turns around and tries to confront Sauron with the palantir and ends up running from the orb like a coward.
I think PJ tries to humanize everyone too much and they come off looking weak a great deal. The human element in LotR has, for me, always been the hobbits. Heck, by the end of RotK in the book Aragorn is only ever called Elassar (sp?) and seems much more removed. But it is the hobbits that symbolize the reader in the book, they are normally the ones that you can most relate to in the books.

But Tolkien accomplishes this without making Gandalf look weak, and more importantly, with out destroying much of the meaning behind Gandalf's return as the White Rider, as PJ was able to do...

By using the device that the Witch King leaves when he hears of the arrival of the Rohirrim (was this an excuse?) AND the disappearance of Gandalf so as to save Faramir, Tolkien is able to turn the final showdown with the Witch King over to the mortals...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by aldredheron

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and argue a position I don't agree with with.That position is PJ is right to weaken Gandalf because by doing so he increases the heroism of the humans (Aragorn and Eowyn).

Which wouldn't have been necessary if he hadn't... er... wussified Aragorn in the first place. If he thought it was necessary to make so many egregious changes to the source material to make it filmable, he should've either started with a different source or written an entirely new story. Nice to know you don't agree with your own argument.