Nenya or the Elessar?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

When the Third Age began, Galadriel and Celeborn did not rule over Lorien immedietly. They settled in various places, sometimes visiting Lorien to help its defenses. There wasn't even a mention of her usage of Nenya until she was officially elected to rule Lorien. So do you think she was using the Elessar during her settlement at Dol Amroth, brief visits to Lorien, and her stay at Rivendell? And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar. So do you think? This must be why Rivendell wasn't as beautiful compared to Lorien, since Elrond did not possess the Elassar. He'd only be able to "preserve" the pre-existing vegetation that was in Rivendell, whereas Galadriel was able to beautify Lorien. Thoughts?

[Rumil]

Hi Gorthaur,

by coincidence I was just reading 'of Galadriel and Celeborn' in UT last night, and the various texts are flatly contradictory in many aspects. So I'm looking forward to see if anyone can sort it out !

[The Might]

One passage in the UT pretty much sums it all up:

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three," was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrían her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.

The part with (as she thought) fits in very well as criticism. Basically Galadriel gave up the Elvish, natural way of healing things and instead took the Sauron way, with the Ring of Power. This change fits well with her dreams of glory and power. In the end, I think the Elessar would have ended up with Aragorn anyway, since even had Galadriel kept it for healing purposes, she knew the age of the Elves was approaching its end and that Men could make better use of it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

So does this mean that Telcontar (or Arwen) would use the
Elassar to "beautify" Greater Gondor? It would certainly be
helpful in Ithilien and the Pelennor Fields. What about
giving Treebeard some help around the eaves of Fangorn?

[mark12_30]

So setting aside the Three Rings, for now; How many other elves used gems for healing/blessing purposes?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

So setting aside the Three Rings, for now; How many other elves used gems for healing/blessing purposes?

The most obvious is Arwen, who gave a white gem to Frodo to aid him 'when the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you'.

[Galin]

With reference to the Three: '... included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change.' JRRT, draft letter 181

The powers of the Elessar: 'For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt.'

And considering Galadriel's comments to Celebrimbor (or Gandalf), with respect to fading and death, I think it's possible that Nenya essentially did the job of the Elessar, and so she handed the latter on.

The Elessar of Celebrimbor was said to be the greatest of his works: 'save the Three Rings only' and its light said to have less power than the original (within the conception of two Elessars, as there are two internal conceptions proposed).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Galin

With reference to the Three: '... included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change.' JRRT, draft letter 181

The powers of the Elessar: 'For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt.'

And considering Galadriel's comments to Celebrimbor (or Gandalf), with respect to fading and death, I think it's possible that Nenya essentially did the job of the Elessar, and so she handed the latter on.

The Elessar of Celebrimbor was said to be the greatest of his works: 'save the Three Rings only' and its light said to have less power than the original (within the conception of two Elessars, as there are two internal conceptions proposed).

In the Silmarillion, it is said that the chief powers of all the rings alike was the slowing of decay. But then Tolkien goes on to say that Sauron desired the Three, because they possessed the greatest powers and those who bore them could ward off decay and postpone weariness. This gives me the impression that the other 16 rings could possibly "slow" decay/time (as well as enhance their bearers' natural powers) but not to the extent that the Three could. Can we safely assume that the Three could completely "arrest" time and decay, whereas the 16 lesser rings could only "slow" time, or don't even have that capability at all (except for Sauron's extra hocus pocus), hence the Three's loftier rank over the 16?

[Galin]

Hmm, as you note (letter 131 states that) the chief power 'of all the rings alike' was the preservation or slowing of decay, and it's also said that the Three were supremely beautiful and powerful and 'directed to the preservation of beauty'.

I've not yet looked into the further distinction you wonder about, although I don't remember a 'stop' versus 'slow' distinction at the moment -- in specific comparison between the Three and other rings in any event.

There wasn't even a mention of her usage of Nenya until she was officially elected to rule Lorien.

There is a general mention that might imply the Three were in use earlier in the Third Age (Appendix B), as it is noted that for long the Elves were at peace, wielding the Three while Sauron slept -- this could be a general statement but my guess is that Artanis would have used Nenya before settling in Lorien (not that you said otherwise).

So do you think she was using the Elessar during her settlement at Dol Amroth, brief visits to Lorien, and her stay at Rivendell?

In my opinion Galadriel's settlement at Dol Amroth was rejected and essentially replaced with Lindon, although admittedly the evidence is somewhat thin. Concerning Nenya (and after the One had been lost to Sauron of course), to me it seems possible that Galadriel used it to help introduce the Mallorns before she settled permanently in Lorien. Cerin Amroth had Mallorns of great height, assuming they were planted there when the mound was raised, anyway.

And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar.

I think the same expression could be used of Galadriel wielding Nenya, that all things grew fair about her (you didn't comment on that point so I'm not sure whether you agree or not, or that I made clear my opinion).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ Yes, perhaps the same expression may apply, but did not Tolkien say in one of his letters that the rings were "endowed with the powers of preservation, not of birth,"? That makes me think they could not create but just preserve. Hence why they attempted at nothing new, but instead, clinging to the old, right? They could "embalm" but could not create, whereas the Elessar could "birth" or create but not preserve or hold back time. It seems to me that had Galadriel would have to actively maintain her realm with the Elessar, since it could not hold back time. But with Nenya, she could just halt change and decay over a couple of miles without actively or routinely maintaining flora, right?

Also, in the UT, her ring Nenya was referred to as the "Chief of the Three." Chief of what? My guess is that Nenya was the "Chief" in preserving of the Three, while Vilya was the mightiest in defending (maybe), and narya the greatest in inspiring people. Because if you compare Rivendell and Lorien, you could almost feel like Lorien is like a mini Valinor. It may be the backgrounds of the bearers, Galadriel having lived in the West, but in her land... the preservation is so felt compared to Rivendell. I don't know why Frodo says, "the wearing is slow in Lorien, for the power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours though short they may seem." Whereas Gandalf clearly states after his ressurection that he "tarried there in the ageless time of that land, where the days bring healing, not decay." These are two different perceptions, I think. The hobbit suggest that Lorien is wearing slowly, while the Istari says it is clearly ageless (weariness is completely arrested, not slowed). I think I'll trust the maia. Tolkien says so himself that the Three can ward off the weariness and decay. Maybe it's just the other 16 that can only slow the weariness and decay, but they could never really ward it off to the degree that the Three can. Hence Sauron's great desire to possess them.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Yes, perhaps the same expression may apply, but did not Tolkien say in one of his letters that the rings were "endowed with the powers of preservation, not of birth,"? That makes me think they could not create but just preserve. Hence why they attempted at nothing new, but instead, clinging to the old, right? They could "embalm" but could not create, whereas the Elessar could "birth" or create but not preserve or hold back time.

Yes, good point; but Tolkien also says the Elven rings enhanced the natural powers of the possessor (which I assumed was present in the Three as well), and Galadriel seems concerned with growing things. Mallorns would not grow in Lindon (part of old Beleriand), but 'under her power' they did in Lorien -- though I guess that could mean under her power unaided by the Ring, and perhaps I should reconsider these matters.

That all things grew fair about her could mean that things grew without decay. And according to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn at least: '... she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful.'

At some point when she could use Nenya anyway, one assumes.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Also, in the UT, her ring Nenya was referred to as the "Chief of the Three." Chief of what? My guess is...

This also could be an external slip by Tolkien I think, JRRT forgetting what he had already published concerning Vilya -- meaning that he was maybe just thinking of characterizing Nenya as generally the most powerful of the Three. We must remember that the Elessar text is charcterized as a: 'very rough manuscript' and in 'the first stage of composition'.

The hobbit suggest that Lorien is wearing slowly, while the Istari says it is clearly ageless (weariness is completely arrested, not slowed). I think I'll trust the maia.

In my opinion Lorien could be said to be 'ageless' or timeless in general, if the wearing was either greatly slowed or fully arrested. That doesn't mean I think I have proven anything here, only that I think these two statements are not necessarily at odds given that I don't think Gandalf's need be taken so precisely.

Back to the Mallorns, I would say that the Elves did not need the Rings to create new things, but that the Third Age nevertheless was (generally speaking) considered the fading years of the Eldar, and they wielded the Three while Sauron slept, but attempted (as noted): 'nothing new, living in memory of the past.' The preservation power some Elves now did have (or could enjoy) went hand in hand with their tendencies here.

But was the growing of Mallorns in Lorien something 'new'? In one sense yes, but the trees came from Eressea to Numenor, and so to Gil-galad, and in another sense the Mallorns were not a new thing in the world, if new East of the Sea. They added an Eressean beauty to this 'mini Valinor' or sorts. Of course they must be grown, and one could even say they were born anew in Middle-earth I guess, which appears to go against Tolkien's own statement 'not of birth' (if Nenya was used to aid in this endeavour).

Or am I just trying to hold on to a (as I say above) 'possible' notion? because I like the idea of Galadriel helping the Mallorns thrive East of the Sea, in part due to Nenya.

[Eönwë]

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

According to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (which I raise here because according to CJRT The Elessar goes with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in certain features, and was probaly written about the same time, or a little earlier): '... and by its power [Nenya] the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful.'


A further issue is that of competing conceptions and texts: in the later conception, it is not a given (at least) that Galadriel was in Greenwood (extended Lorien) when she received the Elessar. In my opinion she was not in Lorien until after she had received Nenya -- which is problematic with respect to her passing the Elessar on when she received Nenya, as she would have passed it on before even arriving in Lorien.


Even within the context of the earlier texts it still might be noted that the window for using the Elessar ends quite early with respect to Galadriel's relationship to Lorien. Galadriel does not take up her 'second rule' until the Third age and the disaster in Moria, almost two thousand years into the Third Age, as in this conception, after the Fall of Eregion she leaves Lorinand, and it was: '... not until far in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981'.

Of course one need not merge these two texts, but in The Elessar itself (two stone conception) Galadriel still gives up the stone when she receives Nenya, and one has to fit that with 'some' version of her history in connection to Lorien.

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote: And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar. So do you think? This must be why Rivendell wasn't as beautiful compared to Lorien, since Elrond did not possess the Elassar. He'd only be able to "preserve" the pre-existing vegetation that was in Rivendell, whereas Galadriel was able to beautify Lorien. Thoughts?

Delving deeper here...

In the description of the powers of the Elessar-stone the main focus seems (to me) to be on healing. At Sirion's haven Earendil uses it to heal both Men and Elves, and beasts, and even the land appears to reflect this, as: 'all things were for a while green and fair' (ignoring here that in The Silmarillion the healing is attributed to the Silmaril).

Noting Galadriel's complaint (to both Gandalf and Celebrimbor): 'for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.' (to Gandalf). And similarly to Celebrimbor: 'I would have trees and grass about me that do not die -- here in the land that is mine' And looking back at the earlier description of Earendil's stone: '... withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth'

Is Galadriel asking for the power to make Lorien more beautiful? if the Elessar made things more beautiful they would still fade and die, arguably making Galadriel's grief even more piercing. And in the 'two Elessar' conception Galadriel did not know that she would later have Nenya to preserve the work of the Elessar, and even upon receiving her Ring, she could not use it for many years to come in any event (and in the 'one Elessar' conception she already had Nenya when the Stone came to her, which is why I fail to see why she would say these things to Gandalf at this point).

In any case I think The Elessar text is very much a draft text, and not merely with respect to Celebrimbor's changing history (since he became Feanorian).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So we can agree that the Elessar merely healed, but did not have the power to perpetually rejuvenate and halt decay within several miles like Nenya. It seems to me that Celebrimbor learnt from his shortcomings with the Elessar (no power to hold back time) and combined this lore with what he knew of Sauron's to perfect the Three, though Nenya truly does stand (compared to Narya and Vilya) out in this area. One could view the Elessar as an "essay" before the Three.

Now there's been some posters on here that accuse Galadriel of flagrantly using Nenya in a hubristic attempt to replicate Valinor and its timelessness. Do y'all agree? Granted, she did come from the Blessed Realm, but can we not account for this as a natural characteristic of her ring, Nenya? It is the "Chief" of the Three. Not to mention Celebrimbor picking it for her... specifically her. There must be a purpose for it. Or is it simply a reflection of each of the bearers innate powers? For example, I disagree that Elrond uses Vilya conservatively. To me, he uses Vilya just as he should within the measure of his innate strength.


Alrigght, sorry for getting off-topic. So then if the Elessar was made in Gondolin, then it must be responsible for the growth of Mallorn in Gondolin, right? I'm not sure where i read it, but there was a mention of mallorns flourishing within Gondolin.

One other thing, it seems that the Silmaril has this rejuvenating power as well. Was it really the Elessar at work in the havens of Sirion, or was it the Silmaril?

And why does Treebeard say this: "Those were the broad days! Time was when I could walk and sing all day and hear no more than the echo of my own voice in the hollow hills. The woods were like the woods of Lothlorien, only thicker, stronger, younger. And the smell of the air! I used to spend a week just breathing."

Thicker, stronger, and younger? Lorien was the fairest place in ME. What is he talking about? His forest doesn't even have mallorns and mallorns are the mightiest trees.

[Mnemosyne]

There are actually some different contradictory texts on Mallorns, I think. The main one I remember said they didn't exist until Numenor.

Plus then we've got the amazing Mallorn in the Shire in the Fourth Age while the Elessar was chillin' in Minas Tirith. I just don't see the connection here.

[Galin]

So then if the Elessar was made in Gondolin, then it must be responsible for the growth of Mallorn in Gondolin, right? I'm not sure where i read it, but there was a mention of mallorns flourishing within Gondolin.

That's from a note in Unfinished Tales, but my answer would be: not necessarily (that they must be due to the Elessar).

Galadriel appears to do something quite notable, getting Mallorns to grow East of the Misty Mountains -- notable in that they would not grow in Lindon that is, a very western part of Middle-earth and a remnant of the Drowned Lands, so to speak; and peopled by Elves, including High Elves -- and the Mallorn (with soil) of the Shire also hails from her of course.

Was this aided by Nenya? again I'm not positive, and maybe I'm not giving Galadriel enough credit. Perhaps it is because Galadriel is her great self, but in any case Nenya could be employed in the Third Age, before Cerin Amroth was raised at least (according to a passage in Unfinished Tales), and so the idea came into my head.

But that is only one 'possible' scenario anyway, and if I have missed something that shows the Mallorns are (or must be) present in Lorien in the Second Age, then I must abandon the (specific) idea of Galadriel using Nenya to help the Mallorns take root, as she would be using her ring before Sauron lost the One.

One other thing, it seems that the Silmaril has this rejuvenating power as well. Was it really the Elessar at work in the havens of Sirion, or was it the Silmaril?

I'm not sure this was meant to be an internal variation (not that you necessarily meant that it was). If not we have two (external) arguably competing ideas, with the Silmaril noted in The Tale of Years for instance (The War of the Jewels):

511 '... reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril' CJRT notes here: 'Cf. the Quenta (IV. 152): 'for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships; also AB 2 (V. 143).' And of course he chose the Silmaril for the 1977 Silmarillion.

I would have done the same

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Galadriel appears to do something quite notable, getting Mallorns to grow East of the Misty Mountains -- notable in that they would not grow in Lindon that is, a very western part of Middle-earth and a remnant of the Drowned Lands, so to speak; and peopled by Elves, including High Elves -- and the Mallorn (with soil) of the Shire also hails from her of course.

Was this aided by Nenya? again I'm not positive, and maybe I'm not giving Galadriel enough credit. Perhaps it is because Galadriel is her great self, but in any case Nenya could be employed in the Third Age, before Cerin Amroth was raised at least (according to a passage in Unfinished Tales), and so the idea came into my head.

As to the flourishing of the Mallorn in the Shire, and the accelarated growth of the flora where the soil from Lórien was left, it seems that could not have been the work of Nenya. Sam's planting of the seed and use of the soil grains came after the destruction of the One, and subsequent loss of the Three's power. Unless it was due to some lingering effect of the Elessar, I'd have to ascribe the virtues of Sam's gift from Galadriel to her native power entirely.

'In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it.'

FOTR Lothlórien (emphasis added)

She'd already handed off the Elessar to Aragorn at that point, notably.

[Galin]

Good quote and point Inziladun.

I also have found another problem with the (my 'possible') Nenya theory:

Haldir says: '... and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built.' An older conception might lie behind this line as well, but in a later note published in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn chapter (Unfinished Tales), it is said: '... for Lorien after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age became a land of uneasy vigilance, and Amroth must have dwelt in growing disquiet ever since Dol Guldur was established in Mirkwood.' And that Amroth's flet on the hill of Cerin Amroth: '... was principally designed to watch Dol Guldur across the Anduin.'

My guess at 'happier days' for Amroth would have been the years before the Shadow arose. Granted it is only happy-er but still, according to the text titled Amroth and Nimrodel: 'His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel. For long years he had loved her...'

This is arguably 'better' I think (to some degree!) with respect to agreeing with The Lord of the Rings.

If I adjust my chronology along these lines however, I think I will have trouble with Galadriel using Nenya to aid with the introduction of the mallorns in Lorien, because the suggestion within the later notes found in Unfinished Tales is that her first visit to Lorien in the Third Age (when Nenya could be employed) was roughly about the time of the growing shadow of Mirkwood (TA 1050 a shadow falls on Greenwood) and the matter of Dol Guldur (in c. TA 1100 the Wise discovered that an evil power had made a stronghold in Dol Guldur).

But anyway, as I say, good point!

[Galin]

Here's another example that doesn't exactly help the Nenya case with respect to the mallorns, brought up (elsewhere, by Maiarian Man). Treebeard says...

'They are falling rather behind in there, I guess,' he said. 'Neither this country, nor anything else outside the Golden Wood, is what it was when Celeborn was young.'

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Here's another example that doesn't exactly help the Nenya case with respect to the mallorns, brought up (elsewhere, by Maiarian Man). Treebeard says...

'They are falling rather behind in there, I guess,' he said. 'Neither this country, nor anything else outside the Golden Wood, is what it was when Celeborn was young.'

That seems to obliquely speak of the ultimate futility of Galadriel's works in Lórien.
The Elves there would almost appear to be stuck in a fairer version of the torment of the Nazgûl: they had arrested change and death, at the price of being trapped in a rut where they could not change or adapt for the better, either.
The power of preservation the Three provided was a temporary shield against decay, and could provide a simulacrum of the Undying Lands. In the end though, the effort to arrest change in a world in which change was the natural state of things only led to sadness, as the closer they got to Valinor, the more aware they became of the differences between what they'd done with the Three, and the 'real thing' in the West.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

That seems to obliquely speak of the ultimate futility of Galadriel's works in Lórien

How so? Treebeard regarded the Golden Wood fair. They're behind because the workld outside was decaying and growing less beautiful.

The power of preservation the Three provided was a temporary shield against decay, and could provide a simulacrum of the Undying Lands. In the end though, the effort to arrest change in a world in which change was the natural state of things only led to sadness, as the closer they got to Valinor, the more aware they became of the differences between what they'd done with the Three, and the 'real thing' in the West.

I never got that (things wrought by the Three leading to sadness) impression. In the Silmarillion, it states that wherever the Three dwelt, there also was mirth. If it had led to sadness, as you suggested, Galadriel would not have wished for the the One Ring to never have come into existance or remained forever lost, implying that she'd never go back to Valinor while Nenya lasted. Her realm was the perfect semblance of the true West.
I believe the sadness stemmed from the realization that the Three were bound to the One: should it be recovered or destroyed, the Three must fail with it. The elves were duped. I think Elrond and Galadriel were satisfied with what they could create for their realms with the Vilya and Nenya, and their respective Valinorean atmospheres. But it was the threat of Sauron and the undoing of their works that I understand was their sadness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

How so? Treebeard regarded the Golden Wood fair. They're behind because the workld outside was decaying and growing less beautiful.

Fair Lórien certainly was. However, in the scheme of things in Middle-earth it was unnatural. A pocket of timelesseness had been created in a world in which time was not static. I don't believe that state could not have endured indefinitely, regardless of whether the One perished, or remained unfound. The Elves were ultimately doomed to fade if they did not return to the Undying Lands, and neither Nenya, nor the other two of the Elven Rings would have been able to stop that. I think Galadriel and Elrond knew that their actions with Nenya and Vilya were only temporary.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Fair Lórien certainly was. However, in the scheme of things in Middle-earth it was unnatural. A pocket of timelesseness had been created in a world in which time was not static. I don't believe that state could not have endured indefinitely, regardless of whether the One perished, or remained unfound. The Elves were ultimately doomed to fade if they did not return to the Undying Lands, and neither Nenya, nor the other two of the Elven Rings would have been able to stop that. I think Galadriel and Elrond knew that their actions with Nenya and Vilya were only temporary.

Temporary because of the inevitable doom that must come in the aftermath of Frodo's quest. Yes, Mandos doomed the elves who stayed in Middle-earth, but the Three were specifically made to resist this weariness, so why would you suggest that they would be ineffective? Is it not their whole purpose? Did they not bring rejuvenation, halt decay, and warded off evil? Sure, their making and purpose wasn't aligned to Iluvatar's plans, but they were rings of power. If it were not for Sauron's binding, the rings' demise would've been averted. Again, Galadriel herself stated that she wished the One had never been or remained forever lost (if this wish were of any avail in coming true). Someone as wise as she would know. This desire for the One to remain lost or non-existant indicates that Nenya (and we can safely assume Narya and Vilya as well) was doing its job just fine. To dwindle into a rustic folk of dell and cave... now why would she suggest this to Frodo only after the Three are shorn of their power? That's just it! The Three prevented fading and weariness. That's the whole purpose for their creation and they held the greatest powers in that area compared to the sixteen.

[Inziladun]

'Power' beyond one's native abilities is not generally well-considered in these works. Yes, the intentions of the makers of the Three, and those who wielded them, were good. Yes, they were somewhat successful in their desires to preserve the past. But, as you say, this was not in line with the doom, or fate intended for them. They used power that did not belong to them to make a semblance of deathlessness. And again, that was not natural to the state of things in Middle-earth: it was a hollow echo of the true immortality of the Undying Lands, and someone like Galadriel, who had experienced the real thing, would have perceived that. I don't think she ever intended for Lórien to be permanent. In fact, a section of the chapter devoted to her and Celeborn in UT says she advised that the Three should be hidden and never used, after the loss of the One. She longed to return to the West, but believed herself still in exile. She lived in a carefully constructed fantasy of the Undying Lands, hoping against hope she could one day return there. Her statement that she wished the One had remained lost can be explained by her having regret that the party had to end so soon, and in such a fashion: because it had been found, she knew that one way or the other she would finally lose all she had gained by the use of Nenya.
This has no textual basis I am aware of, but to me it would seem the ultimate cheat of Doom if any Elves living under the shadow of an artifact of power created by themselves would have been allowed to use it for eternity, or near it, and keep themselves in guarded 'museums' while Ilúvatar's plan for the return of the Elves to Valinor and the start of the Dominion of Men in Middle-earth took a back seat. Would that really have been possible?

[Findegil]

The problem of a "what if ..." discussion like this one lies in the fact that the reported events worked towards the doom predicted, while the questioner often tries to sigels out 1 event that he would change for the sack of discussion.

If the Three had been free from Saurons influence (the One never made, the One lost for ever, the Three not influenced by the distruction of the One) then the Doom of Mandos would have found other ways to remove the Three from Middle-Earth sooner or later.

By the way: I don't think that Galadriel is realy wishing for such things. She rather pionts out how ideel and useless such wishes against the fact of history are.

Mandos is not the maker of the fate he presages. He does only speak his knowledge about the future gained from the Music of the Ainur and the vision of Iluvatar. Thus for all but Men the Dooms of Mandos are unavoidable in the longrun.

Thus in the end, to have the Three operating freely, we have to ask what if the Doom of Mandos wouldn't have been like it was. But that change would have changed the whole story of Middle-Earth and is thus not very interresting i.m.o..

Respectfully
Findegil

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Her statement that she wished the One had remained lost can be explained by her having regret that the party had to end so soon, and in such a fashion: because it had been found, she knew that one way or the other she would finally lose all she had gained by the use of Nenya.

I don't understand what you meant by this, as you previously stated:

it [Lórien] was a hollow echo of the true immortality of the Undying Lands, and someone like Galadriel, who had experienced the real thing, would have perceived that.

What "party" was there or "gain" to be lost if Galadriel pereceived, as you said, all that she created with Nenya to be a hallow echo of the West? It just seems incosistent to me for her to regret creating everything with Nenya in the line of thought that it could never be as good as Valinor. I got the impression that she was quite satisfied with all the things she accomplished with Nenya and her very own version of Eressea in Middle-earth. So if her joy is diminished (when weilding Nenya & enhancing Lórien), why is she lamenting over its inevitable demise? It's contradictory if she's regretting it because all her endeavours pale in comparison to Valinor. Otherwise, why her deep love for Lórien if it was a half-assed Valinor? But if she regretted using Nenya and all that she wrought with with it because it must come to an end (being bound to One's power, her refusal of the One, and subsequent aiding of the fellowship), then that's more feasible.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

What "party" was there or "gain" to be lost if Galadriel pereceived, as you said, all that she created with Nenya to be a hallow echo of the West? It just seems incosistent to me for her to regret creating everything with Nenya in the line of thought that it could never be as good as Valinor.

Couldn't she have had full knowledge that her efforts would ultimately be futile, yet still mourn for the moment when it came?
This has gotten a bit off course, going from the question of whether Lórien's beauty and healing properties were mainly the results of the Elessar's powers, or of Narya's, to the merits of the effort itself to create a Valinor in miniature. I take the blame for getting things off track. Perhaps this question deserves a thread of its own.