Frodo's Barrow Dilemma

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Findegil

For me it makes a lot of sense:
- Bilbo did not know that Gandalf could see him, when he wore the ring. The revelation when Gandalf would have spoken to him while he sought himself invisible would have been a shock. Reading between the lines we can see that Gandalf would have found Bilbo anyway.

Could Gandalf see Bilbo when Bilbo was wearing the Ring? I don't remember ever thinking he could.

[Findegil]

For Gandalf that is never stated as a clear fact, but in addition to passages refered to above, we have the scene in the Hobbit were Gandalf seems to know from the start that Bilbo did not tell the dwarves the whole story how he had eluded Balin the outlook when he came up at their camp-fire after the Orc-tunnles. And we have the scene in Imladris where Gandalf looks at Frodo after his wounding at Weathertop and sees more then plain looking Sam. And later he explains Frodos own expirience during his near to ghost state at the ford of Bruinnen, in a way that suggest that he does know what he is talking about.

An additional evidence is Tom Bombadil who could see Frodo plainly when he wore the Ring. But it is a weak one since it can be contested if Bombadil was being of the same order as Gandalf the Grey.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Mirkgirl]

About Gandalf seeing through the ring-veil (I know, technically not correct)... I understand why Tolkien kept out of it - it is hard to imagine him not being able to, being tricked by such a toy feature. Otherwise clearly assigning more power to Gandalf against the ring is not neccessarily good - how to explain that the guy doesn't want to give it a try to destroy or even use the thing?

That being said for the narrative choice, he probably could, probably even the higher elves could.

We shouldn't forget that the power Bombadil had over the ring, wasn't just the ability to see someone wearing it, but not to let the ring lead him to the other side, not disappearing from the land of living while wearing the piece.


Now back to the original question. To answer it, we should first know how the Wight the hobbits "saw". All the groping and the eyes lit from beyond probably mean a sight from the shadow world, feeling and seeing just enough from the world of living to take its victims. So probably it was a bad idea to put the ring on in order to become invisible to the barrow creature. He'd more like had gotten a view of the Frodo Bagging in his best shine and brightness.

Which on the other hand, might not have been bad for the initial plan (save your skin leaving the friends behind). The B-W was powerful alluring fresh meat, that is foolish enough to fall asleep in his range, but being affronted by a power like that of the ring, would have probably taken him aback. I guess he would think that he has made a mistake capturing something he is not entitled to and step back.

Of course that would have still meant saving himself in the moment and letting his friends to the will of the BW. I think this episode was one of the most important part in the preparation of Frodo as a Ringbearer.

[Pervinca Took]

Also, concerning the mad notion of escape that occurs to Frodo before he decides to try to save his friends instead: I think this is wholly, or almost wholly, the Ring tempting him.

When Sam bears the Ring for a few hours, we are told "one thing it did not confer, and that was courage." The Ring did not help Sam overcome his fear in Cirith Ungol, and only made him think of lying low, not of rescuing Frodo at all. The Ring did not help a person's native or natural courage; it antagonised and worked against it, so that a person's own courage had to fight to overcome it. "It was almost more than he could screw himself to face," we are told, and the Ring did not help him any more than it helped Frodo in the Barrow.

I slightly wonder if Frodo was haunted by guilt of having even thought of leaving his friends to save himself, because he clearly rambles aloud about it in his sleep in Rivendell (as Gandalf tells him when he wakes up. Also Frodo says he never told his friends what happened in the Barrow - at first because it was too horrible - and afterwards because there were other things to think about (perhaps he was glad not to have to think about it and to have other distractions, however horrible). Gandalf commends him for how he dealt with it: "That was touch and go, probably the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop." This also implies that it was a direct pressure of temptation from the Ring, no different from what happened at Weathertop.

More dangerous than Weathertop - why? Because Aragorn was not with them? Because Bombadil could be (and was) summoned, but would not get there in time to save Frodo if he put on the Ring? Is this simply because it would certify the exact whereabouts of the Ringbearer for the Nazgul and they would track him down before protection came?

Could the Wights be in some way in league with the Nazgul? I've never been quite sure if there was some connection, or if they themselves, when alive, belonged to the same kindred as the Nazgul - or if they are simply just another of the "many perils in the world," just like Caradhras, not connected with Sauron at all, directly or indirectly.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

More dangerous than Weathertop - why? Because Aragorn was not with them? Because Bombadil could be (and was) summoned, but would not get there in time to save Frodo if he put on the Ring? Is this simply because it would certify the exact whereabouts of the Ringbearer for the Nazgul and they would track him down before protection came?

Could the Wights be in some way in league with the Nazgul? I've never been quite sure if there was some connection, or if they themselves, when alive, belonged to the same kindred as the Nazgul - or if they are simply just another of the "many perils in the world," just like Caradhras, not connected with Sauron at all, directly or indirectly.

We know that the wights were sent to the Downs by the Witch-king during his wars with the Dúnedain of Arnor. I'm still not sure why he did so, though. They probably were informed a party of hobbits might pass that way.

But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; .... he himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.

UT The Hunt for the Ring

Though the wights were not in direct league with Sauron, they apparently obeyed the Witch-king. The nature of the wights has been a focus of recurring debate over the years. That they were the spirits of Men, presumably his own subjects (who had sworn fealty to him and undergone some sort of sorcery ?) has been mentioned, or that they were a different order of non-corporeal spirit altogether.
At any rate, I don't believe they and the Nazgûl were creatures of the same order.

As to the question of why Frodo was said to be in more danger in the barrow than on Weathertop, it seems to me Frodo could easily have given in to the spell of the wight as his friends did. If he'd done so, he would have been killed, or worse. The Ring would have remained in the barrow, and the Nazgûl probably would have found it eventually. I wonder if the Ring itself might not have been what saved Frodo from the wight's spell, in an ironic fashion.

As you say, on Weathertop, Frodo had help nearby, and knowledgeable, competent help in the from of Aragron. In the barrow he was all alone, and but for his own courage the quest would have been a failure.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

At any rate, I don't believe they and the Nazgûl were creatures of the same order.

Not in the final version, but I vaguely remember a note from the early drafts (in HoME VI) where Tolkien toyed with the idea that the Black Riders (whose nature he hadn't quite determined at the time) could be something like Barrow-wights on horses. Seems like the idea of some connection between the Nazgûl and the Wights was one of those things that appeared early in the writing process and hung around in his head until the end, even if their precise meaning underwent several mutations.