Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXVIII: A Full Moon Over Innsmouth

[Kitanna]

A lot of the early posts were "Day 1, bleh" or "DL isn't good for me Day 1 or Day 2" or "Good list Spm". For the most part not much other than "hey I'm here" posts. Which is fine.

A Little Green mentions all that I just did in her first post (post #11). Still Greenie does provide something to go on other than the afore mentioned posts. After her first two posts it seems the conversation turns away from usual Day 1 jabber into some more substantial.

Legate comes in next, commenting on what's been said so far. At this point he takes somewhat of a wait and see attitude, wanting to give those who haven't appeared a chance to speak.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for the loud/quiet-debate - of course everyone should make an effort to participate to the fullest, but exactly how much everybody's fullest amounts to may and does vary from person to person. It's difficult to distinguish between a naturally quiet citizen, somebody distracted by menial duties, and a lurking wolf; in case of doubt, content should be considered as much as word count.

Greenie brought this point up as well about the loud/quiet thing. Inziladun later comments on this as well. Personally, I think it's easier to tell if someone is quiet as a playing style or quiet to hide guilt after Day 2, but that's just how I've seen it in the past.

Wilwa makes a point here that I'm inclined to agree with and yet wonder about at the same time:

But Day 1s are sooo useful on Day 2s, therefore we should all help ourselves out and post anyway, even if we have nothing to say or add. Just so that toMorrow we'll have something on everyone!

Now she makes a good point about how useful all these posts will be on Day 2. However, she calls for people to make noise and if some players have nothing to add than it'll be just white noise (adding absolutely nothing substantial for Day 2). Wilwa does this herself by stating how Day 1 is hectic and random, a well established fact at this point. Wilwa acknowledges this as stating the obvious, which adds white noise. That makes me wonder.

Later Wilwa defends this from Nogrod:

I was simply making a point that no one can make the excuse "I didn't post cause I had nothing new to add". I posted and had nothing new to add, therefore everyone can. Something useless is still better then nothing at all.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. It's good to post at least once before voting, but I don't think it's such a good idea to say next to nothing. Of course it's really a Catch-22.

In Post 31 the first vote is cast for Nienna by Morsul. I know he's inexperienced, but I'm baffled by his choice.

Back to Wilwa:

If it's even possible people should try to avoid paying too close attention to what the vote tally is, just focus on who you want to vote for and don't let others' votes influence yours (unless of course you're voting someone because of their vote).

I think she has some sound advice trying not to look at vote counts. Of course I doubt many will actually do this, but I think that's a decent idea.

In general comments (because I'm falling asleep): I think Craydon puts forth an interesting idea, though I fail to see it as practical.
Morsul's vote, confused at best. Nienna's response to it, justified. The situation, amusing.
Hakon votes for Inziladun, mmmm. Granted Hakon had to vote early, but voting based on games past seems a bit dodgy.
Like Hakon, Loslote and Craydon had to vote early, but I can't find any reasoning for their votes.
(sorry these last comments are rushed)

I have some more comments to make and few more players to bring up, but I would like to review some posts with a clear head before saying anything else.

[Brinniel]

On a more serious note...

Originally Posted by Hakon

Also on a side note, I think SPM is a wolf. There is no way he is an ordinary innocent. I mean he is back now after being gone for years, it makes perfect sense to give him some kind of non ordinary innocent role so he can show off his apparently awesome skills at werewolf.

Just because a well-known player hasn't played for awhile does not make him a wolf. For example, Formy joined one of the games I modded, playing for the first time in approximately two years. Yet he was no more than an ordo. You don't know how the mod picks roles; often it's completely random. It's also the same sort of rule that just because someone was a wolf in last game doesn't mean they won't be in this one (I was once a wolf three times in a row). Sometimes it can be tempting to go off meta-reasoning, but it's generally a bad idea and much smarter to actually suspect based on behaviour. And that's how it should be done.

As for the latest two votes... While I can understand the need to vote early, why give no reason? Loslote at least gives some analysis beforehand, but still it's not conclusive. Even if it does happen to be a random vote, at least state so instead of leaving us wondering why.

I don't know if I'll post anymore tonight but while I won't be getting up too early, I should be around for the last hour of the Day. So while you can't expect any wordy analyses from me, I will hopefully be around long enough to get a better read on everyone and make a proper vote.

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What else would I mean? And what a strange comment. I am not quite sure what to make of it, but I will be keeping an eye on you.

Your strange comment would be this one(bolded for easy reading)

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

On a more serious note, I am expecting everyone to play their full part toDay (and, indeed, every Day). When it comes to voting, we won’t have a lot to go on. But we’ll have even less if people don’t speak up, play their part, make their opinions known. I hereby give warning that I shall not take kindly to those who seek to hide in the quiet shadows of the thread.

This strikes me. I know in context it could be "play our parts as good villagers and find the wolves" but at the same time I took it as a sort of signal. Like the Agent to his wolves.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Also on a side note, I think SPM is a wolf. There is no way he is an ordinary innocent. I mean he is back now after being gone for years, it makes perfect sense to give him some kind of non ordinary innocent role so he can show off his apparently awesome skills at werewolf.

I know its been said but this is...not the greatest reasoning. While sure he could have a role, why would it have to be a wolf? This could a wolf's backhanded way of throwing off suspicion though.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Of course not. However, the way they respond would help somewhat. A wolf would have a different mentality approaching the question than an ordo. An ordo would usually imagine what their role would do (and probably have a bit of fun with it) whereas a wolf would try to distract the reader with, well, distracting things.

What distracting things? Why would a wolf make their sentence more distracting? Wouldn't they want it to be perfectly normal? I could write a whole long descriptive paragraph about what I was doing that could say absolutely nothing. It could be very distracting, but I'm innocent so that means nothing.

If we are going to go with this idea of what we were doing the night before: I was curled up in bed reading a book.

[Lariren Shadow]

Vote count!:

Morsul --> Nienna
Hakon --> Inzil
Loslote --> Pitch
Crayon --> Inzil(2)

Inzil 2, Nienna and Pitch 1.

A list!

Inzil: Doesn't set off any alarms.

Pitchwife: Seems innocent to me.

Loslote: Not newbie right? Interesting comment about distracting narratives...maybe sniffing out wolves? Or not. Needs watching.

Hakon: The comment about SPM, now that I realize taken in with his, could be signaling to each other. Not good. Don't have a good feeling about him at all.

Wilwa: She has good points and is optimistic, we should keep her around.

Nog: Seems like typical Nog. I have no idea if that means he's innocent or guilty.

SPM: Needs watching. I find him suspicious for reasons in my last post. Not saying should go after toDay, but he does deserve watching.

Roa: Seems pretty innocent.

Crayon: Newbie. Newbie pass.

Nienna: Pretty innocent looking.

Nerwen: No read.

Legate: Not setting off any alarms.

Greenie: Interesting things to say, not suspicious.

Morsul: Newbie to werewolf? Gets newbie pass.

Kitanna: Nothing much at all.

Brinn: Thinks everyone is a wolf. Paranoid, needs watching.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am here, back from my studies of the Pnakotic Manuscripts. Most interesting things I have uncovered there this time. Did you happen to know that the cannibal Gnopkekhs, before they descended from the fearful plateau of Leng, did...

Whatever, oh, yes. The Werewolves. Okay, here be my thoughts on people up to now...

SpM seems actually very nice and active. Okay, now "nice" can be seen as a derogatory term, but it's not how I mean it now. Supported by the fact that I haven't played with him for a long time, it's very likely that I won't be voting for him toDay at least.

Morsul (does that mean Black Wind? Wonderful, I guess it's fitting here) the Dark is new around here. (Morsul - the Mod of course never reveals or hints at the identity of the WWs. And that goes for everything. I.e. if the Mod posts that somebody found the dead body, somebody came running from behind a corner etc. it's no indication to the people's roles. All this work is for us, the narrations are only narrations. The important information is always only who was killed, what was his role, or other things that might have happened related to the real - not narrational - roles.)
Morsul does not seem any suspicious to me, he just needs to get into the game. For certain, anyway, I am not going to vote him on the first Day, as this is his first game.

Noggoth is more or less his usual self, maybe a bit more, how to say it, ruthless in his attempts to initiate some events in the game, but then, he speaks sensibly a lot and also, let's see what he posts now.

Speaking of him, though...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Why wouldn't you do it Wilwa?

And I actually mean it whatever your role is. If you get lynched early because of what you say but thus help us others to spot a wolf you'll be a hero. So be brave and open your mind! Why can't you?

And so why didn't YOU do that, Noggoth, since you were so keen on staring some actual debate?

I don't feel any suspicious about A Little Green Star-Shaped Stone, at least not this far.

Maybe one I feel rather uneasy about right now is Pitchwife. It is some things he says, and the general tone of his posting. But I would probably need to re-check what he said and also see if he posts more in the future.

I really like Craydon on first sight, the idea of asking people questions or stuff like that is very nice and shows that he means well with this village (ahem...). I am not sure if asking the question you suggested would be worth anything important, but anyway the thought itself is good and mainly, like I said, it's an indication of involvement rather than trying to flow with the stream, down to the mouths of the ocean where the worms feed on the dead bodies. Whatever.

wilwa tries to argue with Nog, or so to say, respond to him, well, I think I see her point, though it's hard to say if she is speaking genuinely or not. Not particularly suspicious or anything, but not any innocent-looking either.

Hakon at first pops in and does nothing - okay, I see, might be busy, but it will be nice to see more in the future, will ye, Hakon? *scary gaze* Oh but okay, he posts more later... but then...

Originally Posted by Hakon

Also on a side note, I think SPM is a wolf. There is no way he is an ordinary innocent. I mean he is back now after being gone for years, it makes perfect sense to give him some kind of non ordinary innocent role so he can show off his apparently awesome skills at werewolf.

Surely this is no reasoning here! And the mods often assign their roles randomly. And even if they didn't, they won't tell us. That would be unfair. It's called meta-game reasoning. We seem to be having too much of that around here this time already, thank you.
Anyway, I am a bit unnerved by Hakon, actually. And the reason for his vote is just plain... well, evil (okay, the word's meaning out of the context of this village). Though I still well remember how he was lynched last time innocent on Day 1... And I can imagine even an innocent Hakon to vote in such a, well, rude manner.

I do not have any particular feeling about Loslote.

Nerwen looks more or less okay, at least trying to do something.

I am slightly worried of Inzil, too. But nothing in particular.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I hope you don't presume the wolves among us would be honest?

Of course they won't, but that's the point. The reaction is the point, not the answer. It's a difference for somebody when he has to lie.

As for Lari, I actually don't see anything suspicious about her, and seems actually quite good to me (even with that SpM comment, which is something I can see as reasonable, not saying that I agree with it, but I can see an innocent posting that).

Originally Posted by Nienna

I do not appreciate being voted for based on these terrible reasons... and on being 'nice'. I don't mind if people actually legitimately finding me suspicious and then voting for me... that is the game... I understand as long as there are reasons.

Of course Morsul's vote for Nienna has no real substance, but then why are you so overreacting, Nienna? You behave as if half of the village was after you.

Originally Posted by Ni

Craydon (can I start calling you Crayon? Please? That is what I read every time I see your name... hehe) seems like the only person suggesting something interesting though I don't believe it will produce any wolves.

Now that was just hilarious We don't need to produce any Wolves, I think, thank you, we probably have enough just as it is...

Roa, looks Roa, but nothing special to base my thoughts on about her yet.

Kit also, nothing special, nothing suspicious this far.

Brinn - okay, what was THAT first post, some sort of madness. Okay, normal in this village, actually. Anyway, but as for the serious part, I can't get any proper read on her at least yet.

Okay, but is that it? I hope so. Anyway, I guess that's from me now, I will probably pop up yet before the DL, and then probably in the last instance around it to vote.

[wilwarin538]

So this will be fairly rushed, cause I'm exhausted and have to go to school soon. No way I'm making it back on toDay (class right up until past DL, no computers allowed in this one). So some comments and then my vote:

Originally Posted by Nienna

This was my post before rolls were assigned. McCaber shortened the roles to put them in the list. He put the innocent in quotes so that people wouldn't think that he was giving a role.
...
Craydon (can I start calling you Crayon? Please? That is what I read every time I see your name... hehe) seems like the only person suggesting something interesting though I don't believe it will produce any wolves.

Thanks for clarifying the "innocent" thing! And I thought the same thing about Craydon, haha. (both about his name and his comments)

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Morsul, the narrations don't contain clues to anyone's guilt. At least, they're not supposed to, anyway. (Right, Wilwa?)

Ahaha, no they're not supposed to....but I am a rebel

Originally Posted by Hakon

++Inzilidun

He has a track record as being a wolf and he has gotten past my radar every time. I am not taking the risk of letting him live.

Also on a side note, I think SPM is a wolf. There is no way he is an ordinary innocent. I mean he is back now after being gone for years, it makes perfect sense to give him some kind of non ordinary innocent role so he can show off his apparently awesome skills at werewolf.

What???? I can assure you that as a mod I did not choose someone's role by saying "Oh this player has been a Wolf sooo many times, I'll make him one in my game too". So I doubt other mods do that. Just cause he's been one before does not make him one here.

And keep in mind, if you insist to use that sort of logic for SPM, that wolf is not the only non-ordinary innocent role. And most roles are chosen randomly any who, so it's not that unlikely that he's innocent.

So...Hakon has played many games, and therefore should have some better logic by now I would think. His vote and comments are weird and I don't like them so

++ Hakon

Sorry I was arround so randomly toDay, next Day should be far better from me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It's called meta-game reasoning. We seem to be having too much of that around here this time already, thank you.

Exactly. Although it should be added that it's difficult, or probably even impossible , to ignore all the meta-reasons one has for suspecting people on Day1. But it's a different thing to have suspicions based on some meta-reasons than to try and argue for ones votes with them.

Like I just can't help it that because Greenie has so totally fooled me a few times lately and I have the feeling she's always a baddie it makes me suspect her also on this Day. Or if I thought the mod had made a slip in the narration I couldn't help that thought affecting my suspicions, but I couldn't argue my "case" based on that slip as it would be kind of "unsporty" (some of you might remember Glirdan's game where he slipped the gender of the last wolf in the narration that one being the only one of that sex left).

So let's try not to suspect people based on meta-reasons and at least not use them as arguments...


Okay. Off with the meta-reason discussion with me.

I need to make a pie for the girls but I will think while doing it. But just from the last posts a few little things...

Somehow the way how Lari makes her comment on wilwa strikes me:

Originally Posted by Lari

Wilwa: She has good points and is optimistic, we should keep her around.

It may be that she just wished to express herself differently (there are many of whom she says only "seems innocent" or "pretty innocent looking" etc.). But of wilwa she says that we should keep her around with actual backing / arguments for why she thinks so. And I think there had been some suspicions raised on wilwa, so that would fit "nicely" ...

Secondly I do share Legate's concern on Nienna. The way she reacted to one badly backed vote early in the voting really looks like she felt the whole village was after her. And that's something the wolves tend to feel more easily than innocents.

EDIT: X'd with wilwa