Tol-in-Gaurhoth Threefold and Six: The Night Guard

[Boromir88]

Usually I would never stick my neck out for Nerwen, because I never get a good read on her, and hence never ever trust her, but I think I will now. This read maybe the best I ever get on her, and I'm feeling innocent...if not congrats Nerwen.

She was the second to vote for Inziladun and the first to vote for Kit and Legate. Almost like she knew Legate was innocent and knew we would go after him. She just chose to get her vote out of the way early. Same thing with Kit.~Hakon

She's already made this point about Inzil, but you can say the same thing with Kitanna too. There was no indication that when Nerwen voted Kitanna was going to be lynched. If Kitanna felt she was in big danger of getting lynched, she would have revealed...she wouldn't have liked it, but she would have had to reveal.

Since it was Day 1, you could argue my 2nd vote made her a viable lynch option...fine. But take note that I was after Kitanna from the get go and any of the reasons against her were people bandwagoning onto my susicions. And that bandwagon really started against her once she left and Inzil hopped onto my suspicions.

I also think Pitch looks better than wilwa because even though wilwa could argue she was merely trying to save herself, she's also done a bang up job at being involved in the other wagons. Add on top of that Pitch's post where he says people should take a look at me (that of which I am much appreciated for because it made me aware of how crappy I've been playing and I need to get my rear in gear), but suddenly when I announce my suspicions on wilwa, she fires back latching onto Pitch's points suddenly saying the "re-reading" of my posts gave her a different feeling.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Usually I would never stick my neck out for Nerwen, because I never get a good read on her, and hence never ever trust her, but I think I will now.

Well, thanks.

Look, I'm curious to know what other people think of Hakon, particularly his last post, which looks very like the work of a panicky wolf to me. Note that the other two people he's accusing there are Wilwa and Sally, who have both come under a good deal of suspicion themselves, particularly the former... so what I think about them now depends on what I think about him, if you see what I mean.

Now, I've skimmed through Inzilawolf's posts, and the trouble is he's had remarkably little real interaction with, or opinion on, any living players. I mean, a more detailed analysis might reveal something, but I haven't had time for that myself.

YesterDay he voted to guard Pitchwife and lynch Brinniel. The situation then was that he had two votes, no one else had any, and Nogrod had just made a case against Brinniel. That is a major point in her favour. However, at that point Inzilawolf must have known he stood a good chance of being lynched, so we can't rule out his voting a fellow wolf to make her look better.

Inzilawolf does, though, very helpfully explain why the pack decided to miss out on the second kill. (Unless, of course, the real reason is something he wanted to distract us from– either way, his responses here are one of the main reasons I voted him.)

EDIT:clarification; X'd with Pitchwife.

[A Little Green]

Right, I'm back here and more confused than ever. I mean, no kill? Either the wolves are in confusion or want us to be.

As for Inziladun - congrats to you guys who killed him, you were smarter than I was.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think it highly unlikely that the wolves loved to vote Inzil yesterDay. There was so much they would lose if one of them was lynched. That doesn't mean though that none of them voted for him, but I'd say that if there were one(s), it would most probably be the first ones or the last ones eg. ones who thought it would not lead into any serious trouble eventually or those who thought their case was lost in regards to Inzil and they would do better to look like wolf-lynchers themselves...

For once, I find myself agreeing with Nogrod in that if there are wolves among the Inzil-voters, they'd probably be among the first or the last ones. I'm quite certain at least one wolf voted for their fellow yesterDay, but I doubt even a very bold wolf would vote for a fellow who had gained a few votes but wasn't sure to get lynched. Following that logic, the ones that look the worst to me are Nerwen (2nd to vote Zil), Wilwa (4th) and Brinn (5th). Nilp, the 1st, looks slightly less so, since I have a hard time imagining a wolf voting for his fellow twice in a row. Nienna looks maybe the best of the Zil voters based on the order in which they voted. She was the third to vote him, at a time when he had two votes and Brinn had one, putting Zil in a clear lead.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Look, I'm curious to know what other people think of Hakon, particularly his last post, which looks very like the work of a panicky wolf to me. Note that the other two people he's accusing there are Wilwa and Sally, who have both come under a good deal of suspicion themselves, particularly the former... so what I think about them now depends on what I think about him, if you see what I mean.

Hmmm. I've been wondering about him as well. It would seem somehow too easy, with his defence of Inziladun yesterDay and all that, but then, Wilwa and Sally are about the easiest suspects you could have, and his arguments were hasty-looking as if he was desperately trying to make a case against somebody.

I'm so confused by this game right now. Possibly back soon with a list to clear my head.

[A Little Green]

I just realised something.

The numbers look pretty good for us at the moment. 11 innocents, 3 wolves. BUT if we lynch an innocent toDay, Shasta and Nessa both miss the lynch and are innocent and the wolves manage a kill next Night, we'll be down to 7 innocents and 3 wolves. With bad luck, we may, in other words, lose four innocents in one Day and one Night. Which is very, very bad.

I only hope Shasta and Nessa turn up, and if they don't I at least hope they are wolves. (Though that, too, would be kind of silly game-wise.)

[A Little Green]

LEANING INNOCENT:
Boromir - He just seems so trustworthy and makes a lot of sense and Nilp brought up a good point about his innocence.
Nienna - She's constantly making shrewd points that make me think "A wolf wouldn't say this aloud". Good vibes this far.
Nilp - Good vibes and in addition to that, I think I already mentioned that I can't see a wolf voting for a fellow twice in a row. I believe Nilp was among the first to start suspecting Inziladun in the first place.
Pitchwife - He seems genuine and I doubt he would have defended Inziladun so openly had he been his fellow.

NO IDEA:
Brinniel - I'm still waiting for the werewolf game where I have a read on her. She feels genuine, but has fooled me before.
McCaber - Too little to go on.
Nessa - Yeah.
Nogrod - I'm confused about him. His early behaviour looked downright suspicious (I believe I have said enough about that subject already...), but he has improved a lot lately. So I don't know.
Shasta - Too little to go on.
wilwa - Another who confuses me to the point of causing me a headache.

LEANING EVIL:
Hakon - I already said why in my previous post. I'm wondering - could he be a new wolf or is it too easy to be true? (Just how many things have I called too easy during this game?)
Nerwen - Aaaaaaaargh. She is making my head ache so much. Last Night I suspected her quite a bit, because a) she phrased her thought, on Day 2, in a way that seemed like she knew that Legate was not, in fact, a wolf, b) she has been acting like she knew why the wolves do this and that (a bit like Zil), and c) I certainly wouldn't put it past her to give a second vote to her fellow wolf (looking good if he gets lynched but not condemning him to a certain death at the gallows). However, her posts seem so sensible that it makes me doubtful.
Sally - I believe I have already stated why I suspect her.

Actually, now that I think of it, it's curious how Nerwen and Hakon, two of my suspects, suspect each other quite vocally. Could it be wolf-on-wolf? Hakon's sudden and hasty-looking attack on Nerwen could be something they had agreed that he do. Like, they had decided last Night that Nerwen and Hakon could pull a wolf-on-wolf suspicion thing. Hrmmmmmm.

But if Hakon is guilty and Nerwen is, too, it would make me think better of Sally, since it wouldn't quite fit the picture that Hakon pulls a planned attack on Nerwen and off-handedly mentions Sally as another one he's suspicious of.


EDIT: x-ed with Wilwa. Happy to see someone else around!

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I think we should also all keep Nog in mind, I know Legate ended up being innocent, but that doesn't mean Nog is. I hate to think that he's a wolf just kind of skimming through.

Exactly. I'm sort of worried that people don't take him into account at all.

I had something smart to say but can't remember what it was. My brain is leaking.


EDIT: x-ed with my topic.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Exactly. I'm sort of worried that people don't take him into account at all.

I have just been too agreeable this far...

Which is kind of interesting ww-psychology -thing as I think I have really betrayed you all with not doing enough work in this game, and the result is that no one suspects me a lot and I'm alive on Day4... Interesting indeed. I mean when I really try my best to help I get lynched or Night-killed pretty early and rarely even a Day passes without bandwagons to lynch me.

Let's see if I manage to change that toDay...

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not saying Shasta would be a wolf, probably not, but neither was there any foreseeable danger he would have been killed during the Night.

How about a no trace -kill? On top of that, no one really suspects Shasta so he doesn't have that big a chance of getting lynched - no, I can see why the wolves might have wanted to go for Shasta.

I think you have a point, though, about the Shasta-wagon coming out of the blue. Sally's guard vote, for example: where did that come from? I cheched those guard votes and it just struck me that Sally cast her guard vote at the last minute to create a three-way tie (Shasta, Pitchwife and Nerwen) in the guard votes. Could she have voted Shasta to try to avoid one of her fellows ending up being guarded? That presents us with a problem, though - why not vote the other one with three votes instead of bringing up a third candidate? It's possible, though, that Sally didn't know the votes (she even asked for a vote tally!) and thus voted one she had seen having some guard votes already. That would mean that if Sally is a werewolf, either Pitch or Nerwen could be one too.

Wait... Nerwen...

Looks far too easy. Aaaaaaargh.


EDIT: x-ed with Nogrod

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Greenie

BUT if we lynch an innocent toDay, Shasta and Nessa both miss the lynch and are innocent and the wolves manage a kill next Night, we'll be down to 7 innocents and 3 wolves.

Well yes, Shasta could be modfired if he doesn't vote toDay, but Nessa still has both toDay and toMorrow to vote since she did on Day 2. I know, it's hard to remember since it was her only post. But yeah, all this potential modfire that could occur... *grumbles*

[Brinniel]

I don't really care for Pitchwife's defense in his first post toDay. It's the first thing he does at the very beginning of the Day before anyone even starts to accuse him of anything. Preparing a defense before the accusations are made can be a very wolfish thing to do.

I'm wondering how likely it is Hakon's a wolf. His strong defense for Inzil is bold and looks quite bad, but would he be so obvious were he a wolf? Though Hakon is still pretty new to WW and I don't think he's been a wolf before, so I suppose there's a chance it could've been a newbie wolf error.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I just got on and had time to read most of the posts but I only skimmed this last page here. So far I only have gut feelings about two people. Those people are Legate and Boro. My gut feeling with Legate is just that something is off and it is bothering me. My gut feeling about Boro is that he is an innocent.

++Boro

[lynch vote]++Legate[/lynch vote]

He didn’t have a lot of time to analyze so he went with his gut. Not the best because his gut was wrong but not unheard of for Day One.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Either my gut feeling about Legate being a wolf was right or the wolves are trying to trick us. I hope it is that Legate is just a wolf.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Speaking of me I am here now. What is bothering me a whole is the fact that you all keep arguing over whether we lynch Legate or not. The way I see it no matter what people say Legate is most likely going to end up lynched. Who else are you going to lynch? There are some other people who come off as suspicious enough to lynch but most of you are not going to pass off an opportunity to lynch a possible wolf. From what I can tell Legate will deny being a wolf up until he is lynched even if he is one. Well I know he did that in one game when the seer accused him of being a wolf. Legate denied being a wolf even when it was clear that he was a wolf and going to be lynched. The game I am talking about is Lommy's game with the four Nazgul instead of wolves. Oh and on a side note, thank you Pitchwife for recommending I read that when I was dead last game. Overall my point is that most likely Legate is going to end up lynched whoever is the next best wolf suspect will probably end up guarded.

EDIT: Fixed a typo that Sally pointed out.

Mentions how we are probably going to lynch Legate even though he is professing his innocence which can very well be a sign of guilt. It seems he is trying to dissuade people from listening to Legate. This was kind of a crucial time before Legate had too many votes so that is interesting. I don’t know… something about the wording and such in this post strikes me as odd. He seems like he is distancing himself from the village.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I have to go now. I will be back by deadline. Before I go I want to put in my lynch vote.

[lynch vote]++Legate[/lynch vote]

I also want to say that I think Alona is lurking. I have nothing to back up this thought or anything that makes it seem true. It is just something that I thought of and I think that is the case. My guess is she will pop up before deadline and make her vote.

Pitchwife, you suggest guarding Legate again and to me it makes it sound like you want him to live. If Legate turns out to be a wolf it suggests that you are also a wolf.

Votes early even though he says he will be back by deadline. 3rd vote for Legate so at this time there could still be time for a different lynch candidate. Makes a random statement about Alona lurking that looks like a possible set up for if she did happen to come back… slightly unsettling.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Time for my guard vote.

++Nogrod

I am voting him for the same reason as Cab and Inzil.

This is interesting… he votes for Nog for the same reasons as McCaber and Zil… yet Zil’s reasons were “for Cab’s reasons” (333)… and McCaber’s reasons were rushed and because “he’s been making a lot of sense, and I’d rather seem him alive” (319)

Originally Posted by Hakon

Well now we know the wolves are killing one a night. I kind of feel like this is partially Legate's fault that they have done it again. I feel this way since yesterday when defending himself he outlined how if the wolves killed one a night they could escape lynching more easily.

One thing I would like to state is that we need to look at the Legate voters. There has to be at least one wolf amongst them. My guess is that the wolf is one of the earlier voters rather than the ones who voted Legate closer to deadline. I think that if there is one wolf amongst the voters this is the case but if there are more than one then this is probably not the case for all of them.

Another thing is the wolves probably expect us to lynch Nogrod today. I think we should try to avoid doing that.

Pretty self-explanatory…

Originally Posted by Hakon

I bet it has to do with the fact that Lommie was one of the only people to not vote for Legate. Inziladun, she did vote for you. Maybe you are a wolf and are worried because she was on to you so you convinced your fellow wolves to support killing her.

With looking at Legate voters we should definitely look at some of the ones who voted earlier in the day. I think there is a large chance that some wolf just wanted to get their vote out of the way and they knew they would be voting for Legate.

I agree with you Nogrod that we should look at the Inziladun voters.

One thing we also need to think about is part of the safety the wolves gain from killing one a night. Because we know that at least once the wolves have chosen to kill one a night we expect it to always have been their choice. It could happen that we end up guarding a wolf and we just assume that they chose to have one kill that night. It could mean a wolf not getting lynched.

Logical.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I am going to start off this post by saying do not lynch Inziladun. I think the wolves set up last night so we either lynch Nogrod or Inziladun. Out of the four Inziladun voters, only two are alive. So far we have assumed they are innocent. The wolves expected us to make that assumption. They want us to lynch Inziladun. It is clear that both he and Nogrod are the prime lynch targets today. We should lynch neither of them.

One person I am somewhat suspicious of is Pitchwife. The reason is because he does not come off even the slightest bit suspicious in this game. In past games he has always been a gifted and has come off somewhat suspicious. I think it is obvious that he is either a wolf or an innocent.

Doesn’t want to lynch Zil. Thinks Pitchwife is suspicious for really faulty reasoning.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I know. In the part of my post that you quoted I was simply stating the obvious.

I thought about it some more and I think Pitchwife is innocent. So far he has only had the role of gifteds so it is logical that he would given the role of an innocent this time. He also is coming off as innocent in this game whereas when he has had the role of a gifted he has not come off as innocent.

++Pitchwife

People, do not vote Inziladun. As I have said earlier the wolves want this. Do not vote for him. The wolves have set it up so we either end up lynching Inziladun today or the guard from last night which is Nogrod. We should not lynch either of them.

Still doesn’t want to lynch Zil but no longer finds Pitchwife suspicious… actually votes to protect him.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I have been saying almost all day that he was set up by the wolves to be lynched today. Hopefully people will listen to you since they failed to listen to me when I said it. The wolves set up two lynching targets, Inziladun and Nogrod. For what seems like the billionth time we should not lynch either of them. So far it is clear that Nogrod is safe and it seems that Inziladun is going to be lynched. Pitchwife, I also plan not to be part of the wagon this time.

Originally Posted by Hakon

[lynch vote]++Nienna[/lynch vote]

Something about her is off. Sadly this is a gut feeling and I am going to get hell for it especially if Inziladun turns out guilty. Still something is off about Nienna.

Really really doesn’t want to vote Zil so votes for me instead… based on a gut feeling which has been proven a faulty way of reasoning already this game.

Originally Posted by Hakon

It is not just unfair to them. It is boring. Knowing who will die takes away the excitement from the game.

I feel like there is a giant target on my back today, even though none of you are coming after me. I regret defending Inziladun yesterday. I really thought he was innocent.

My number one suspect right now is Nerwen. She was the second to vote for Inziladun and the first to vote for Kit and Legate. Almost like she knew Legate was innocent and knew we would go after him. She just chose to get her vote out of the way early. Same thing with Kit. With Inziladun it seems like she was ready to turn on her fellow wolf just to escape suspicion herself. She probably realized that it would be a bandwagon for Inziladun, so she just got her vote out of the way.

I am also suspicious of Sally and Wilwa. Wilwa just because she was involved in all three bandwagons and Sally in the first two but she did not vote yesterday. If she had time to make that quick post where she made her guard vote, I would think that she had time to add a quick lynch vote as well. Almost like she wanted to escape condemning a fellow wolf. I think she voted Shasta because she was worried that her possible fellow wolf Nerwen might be guarded. At the time when Sally voted, Nerwen and Pitch both had three votes and Shasta had two votes. By making it a three way tie Sally had made it a little bit harder for Nerwen to get guarded.

One thing I want to add, is that I do not get why three people voted for Shasta yesterday. He has not been around at all and it was unlikely that he would get killed the next night. It seems like a throwaway vote, the same really as voting for yourself.

On the whole I don’t think him the most suspicious of people. On my continuum of innocent to wolf he is closer to wolf than innocent though.

[Nerwen]

The Shasta Voters:

1.Nienna.
Day 1: Lynch Inzil, guard Mnemo (2).
Day 2: Lynch Legate (5), guard Nerwen (2).
Day 3: Lynch Inzil (3), guard Shasta (1).

2.Pitchwife
Day 1: Lynch Kitanna (4), guard Boro (4).
Day 2: Lynch Legate (8), guard Nogrod (2).
Day 3: Lynch Boro, guard Shasta (2).

3.Sally
Day 1: Lynch Kitanna (6), guard Mnemo.
Day 2: Lynch Legate (12), guard Nienna.
Day 3: Lynch Nobody, guard Shasta (3).

Following Sally's own system, innocents are in italics, known wolves are underlined.

Points against them:

Well, all three were Legate voters–who wasn't? However, Pitchwife and Sally also cast very bandwagonning votes on Kit.

Pitchwife argued strongly against lynching Inzilawolf, and stressed the theory that he had been framed. I'm inclined to think Pitchy a misguided innocent, but you never know...

Sally has done little except post tallies, a favourite lupine trick for appearing to contribute more than you're doing.* She also brought Shasta to a tie.

There is nothing I can think of against Nienna, unless it's that she might indeed be a little too good to be true. *shrugs*

X'd since Brinniel at #497.
*Yes, I know I'm doing it now.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nienna

On the whole I don’t think him the most suspicious of people. On my continuum of innocent to wolf he is closer to wolf than innocent though.

Out of curiosity, who do you find the "most suspicious"?

–Anyway, I'm going to try voting him.

Lynch:

++Hakon

I'm not at all sure about this, though– in fact I seem to be flip-flopping in a manner worthy of Lommy. At one read he seems just like a clumsy wolfcub– perhaps under instructions to play up his inexperience– at others like a garden variety confused ordo.

Guard:

++Nienna.

Despite being one of the Shasta Three, she seems okay, and has contributed a lot. (I'm not ruling out that she could be an extremely sneaky wolf, but at the moment she's low on my suspicion list.)

[McCaber]

So it seems that the modfire+no kill was a one-time thing. Ah well.

Hakon is doing his level best to appear suspicious, while Pitchwife is doing the exact opposite. He's taking actions which look suspicious, but he explains himself well and seems genuine. I know, a rather simple analysis, but it works for me.

I am wary of joining the Hakon wagon, just because his actions scream "cobbler" or "confused" much more than wolf. Although, a wolf hiding in plain sight like that is possible, it's just not the read I'm getting.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Going through Inzil's posts now (thanks wilwa...but gotta say still suspect ye )

Right back at ya buddy.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Random Thought 1.1

I don't think the wolves would seek to guard themselves. Why would vote to guard their fellows. Why would they seek to remove one of their own from the night time discussions? Wouldn't they desire to have full input from their fellows.

We know they found the way to beat the guard votes, but I can't see wolves seeking to NG one of their own, unless if there was no choice and it was a throw away to mislead us...But because of Inzil's guard votes, I'm inclined to think Pitch is innocent, and Nogrod probably too, but there is more doubt since that bandwagon made it pretty clear Nogrod would be protected.

Still it wouldn't make sense for wolves to want to NG eachother, especially a Nogwolf, he would not want to be silenced during the night.

I have to agree with this. Maybe they'd vote for one another if they thought there was no chance that person would actually be guarded, but if anyone who's been guarded ends up being a wolf then those who vote for them at certain times would look rather innocent I think.

I think we should also all keep Nog in mind, I know Legate ended up being innocent, but that doesn't mean Nog is. I hate to think that he's a wolf just kind of skimming through. Even though I don't really get a wolf vibe from him, but I still can't get the idea that it wasn't a bluff the second time. Driving me nuts.

Hakon is kinda bugging me. He's contributing more then usual, which is great, but his suspicions are either gut feelings or things that can apply to him (like Nerwen listed).

[satansaloser2005]

Doing Hakon now, but I have to say it's already looking pretty dark for him too.

(Oh, and sorry, Nienna dear. I've not read your Hakon analysis yet because I want to make sure I'm as unbiased as possible.)


Quick vote count (if it doesn't make me look suspicious)

Lynch:
Nerwen-->Hakon
Greenie-->Hakon (2)
Wilwa-->Cabbie
Boro-->Wilwa

Guard:
Nerwen-->Nienna
Greenie-->Boro
Sally-->Nienna (2)
Wilwa-->Nienna (3)
Boro-->Nilp

[satansaloser2005]

Hasn't changed since my last vote count, so it was easy. Yay!

Lynch:
Nerwen-->Hakon
Greenie-->Hakon (2)
Wilwa-->Cabbie
Boro-->Wilwa

Guard:
Nerwen-->Nienna
Greenie-->Boro
Sally-->Nienna (2)
Wilwa-->Nienna (3)
Boro-->Nilp

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by McCaber

About the one kill: our mod said yesterDay that the wolves would only get one night kill on top of alona. Since we lynched Inzil, presumably that means that the wolves only got one kill total, which they then used on alona instead of who they really wanted.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Huh, ok....so let's say Shasta or Nessa don't vote again toDay and one of them gets modfired, will the wolves lose there kill again toNight??? Eonwe? I mean that's awesome and all for us, but it doesn't seem fair for them. I had thought they only lose a kill from modfires when there was still 4 of them....totally confused.

Well I got the same impression as Wilwa and I don't see how it could be otherwise.

Which leaves us basicaly two chances; either the wolves missed the kill (no one PM'd it in time) or then there is a secret role that annihilated their try.

But then again that probably should not be our main concern now (wondering why McCaber thought that quote up there is the only thing he has to say to contribute).

I have a host of confusing thoughts in my mind as well and I'll try to arrange them in my head a bit before voicing them but I'd like to state the first one already now.

Where did that "guard Shasta" -movement come from? That is a thing I find reaally bothering. I mean no offence Shasta, but you haven't actually contributed in this game. Let's say the wolves actually killed fex. an innocent Nerwen, Wilwa, Boro... (eg. someone who has actually helped us a lot and here for argument's sake is innocent) and you thought it was more important to guard Shasta...

I'm not saying Shasta would be a wolf, probably not, but neither was there any foreseeable danger he would have been killed during the Night.

Okay, I'll go back to read things...


EDIT: Added the ending to one sentence which for some reason was not there...