Gandalf's First Sacrifice

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There is always that "inside the story" versus the "outside the story" angle, isn't there? From inside, it's Bilbo's tale, "There and Back Again, a Hobbit's Holiday," which is a far cry from the same viewpoint as a person on the outside, reading the story as part of a much, much bigger and greater whole. As presented in the Hobbit, just about everything has the feeling of being less than it is in LotR and TS. The Elves of Rivendell are silly, the Dwarves might well have been given names like Grumpy and Fatso, the Elves of Mirkwood are party guys who get nasty and bigoted (possibly from party hangovers), the terrifying trolls are the Three Stooges.... I'd say there's a lot of Bilbo's naïveté in the depictions of peoples and places we see in The Hobbit (now, who really believes that Gandalf's eyebrows stick out beyond the brim of his hat? ).

That said, IF Gandalf had died at that juncture, I suspect that several matters would have led to his return, but probably not as the White at this point (the fact that Bilbo notes that Gandalf seems to come and go without notice or warning could set up a scenario in which, having been left behind, presumably dead, when he shows up later as his usual self, it would be supposed that he had not actually died but had again gone off suddenly, or merely appeared to be dead, "playing possum" for the benefit of the goblins). If Eru knows all that is going on in the world, He would know that Saruman is already heading down the wrong path, but may yet turn back, with help and support. Gandalf is likely the only person who could give it to him, as Saruman's pride would not accept it from lesser beings (Radagast included; he never appeared to have anything but contempt for him). There is no need for Gandalf to come back as the White at this point; in fact, it could cause a lot of problems, and serve to further separate the peoples the Istari were sent to unite, as it would undoubtedly put a huge rift between Gandalf and Saruman and almost ensure that Saruman would side with Sauron. Coming back as the Grey, yes; there is a considerable amount of work left for him to do, especially in guiding and protecting Bilbo, who was meant to find the Ring, and Frodo, who was meant to carry it to Mordor. And there is still that Balrog potentially waiting in the future, where Gandalf can die again, and THEN come back as the White.

His death now, just as the Ring is coming out of hiding, would be bad, and I could see that Eru would not want Gandalf taken out of the picture just yet. However, I think that if Eru were to take a hand in this (presuming Gandalf did hurl himself down from that tree), it would be to make sure he did NOT die. Landing on a group of suddenly conveniently placed goblins or wolves could be enough to do the trick. He might come out a bit injured, to cover up the "miracle" -- but then, being a wizard, if something miraculous HAD happened, others might just put it down to being a wizardly trick.

Interesting thought, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

His death now, just as the Ring is coming out of hiding, would be bad, and I could see that Eru would not want Gandalf taken out of the picture just yet. However, I think that if Eru were to take a hand in this (presuming Gandalf did hurl himself down from that tree), it would be to make sure he did NOT die. Landing on a group of suddenly conveniently placed goblins or wolves could be enough to do the trick.

Why so complicated? Eru would have used the Eagles to save Gandalf, that's his intervention. So in fact one cannot pass this "what would Eru do if the Eagles didn't turn up in time", as that's what he actually did, I would say. I think we are actually facing something here, Form is right and it never occured to me before:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Of course, with a bent for Divine Providence in my system, I'm willing to say that Eru acted through the Eagles--or perhaps, more convolutedly, since Eru is undoubtedly intelligent enough for convolutions--Eru acted through the Valar acting through the Eagles, who happen to show up just in time. Knowing what is to come, this strikes me as having the same sort of divine serendipity to it as Bilbo finding the Ring--Gandalf was meant to fall saving Frodo from the Balrog, returning just in time to fight Saruman and Sauron at the only moments when an unveiled Istar would have been "permitted."

Of course Eru would intervene. He intervenes here, I am sure. Form says it pretty well! What are the Eagles? Aren't they the device that comes up only in really important parts of the story? Are they not appearing only a few times of world-shaking importance - and one might as well ask, why the heck are they appearing now? We just gave ourselves the answer: to save Gandalf! To put it in a bit silly phrased words, "this was not the day for him to die yet".

Though otherwise, of course, the speculations here are quite nice. One more thing I would point out to them, though - let us not forget what was the situation back then. Dol Guldur. Why did Gandalf leave the Company at Mirkwood? To go to the White Council's meeting, to support the attack on Sauron, and then to go to Dol Guldur and drive Sauron away. That was an important blow, and only then Gandalf returned to Erebor to the Battle of the Five Armies. So if you are making assumptions "what would have happened, if Gandalf died on the tree", don't forget that that would mean no Gandalf coming to the White Council. And who knows? Saruman was intending to get rid of Sauron back then already, as he crossed his plans, but would he not back away if there was not Gandalf present? And would the others dare to do it without Gandalf, too? Wouldn't it be too much of a shift in powers? Sauron would have the Wilderness in his hands, especially if the Battle of the Five Armies was lost too. Not sure how well his relations with the Easterling tribes were back then, and how exactly the situation was favourable for him back then (like, if the political situation in the East at that time would allow him to summon the Easterlings to his cause fast and strike to the West. If yes, then good riddance, Middle-Earth). By the way, thank goodness that Smaug would have been probably killed nevertheless! (Quite an important factor, if you recall what Gandalf said in UT about the fact that if Sauron and the Dragon joined forces, it would mean total disaster.) I think there would be at least some hope, but the political balance in M-E would be shifted in such a disasterous way that the West would face serious problems by then. Sauron would not have had built up his armies in Mordor yet, but he would have had far better starting position, having an unharmed base of operation in Mirkwood and open route through the Wilderness (no Kingdom of Dale to worry about), he could easily retake Angmar soon. Bilbo could retreat to the Shire by then, but he could not get far, the Shadow would lie as far as the Misty Mountains and possibly it will even start creeping into Rhudaur. Rivendell may as well have been surrounded, like in old times. And we cannot say for sure about Saruman, as he would be afraid, so afraid that Sauron will now get the Ring - as he will still presume that it's somewhere in the Gladden Fields - and who knows what he would do.

[Morsul the Dark]

The Thing is this, Gandalf would have been brought back, however more than likely as a different character(Only revealing himself as Gandalf at the appropriate time, also remember Why the Eagles helped Him, He had saved the Lord of Eagles from a hunter.. or at least healed a wounded wing(Not near my book at moment.)

Gandalf may not have noticed the eagles coming but He would have taken out the orcs.

If somehow he didn't win and fell well then as I said he'd come back hidden. Because if Saruman Thought Gandalf was gone he'd probably be emboldened against Sauron without having to hide his intentions from Gandalf. Then there is also the other aspect of Gandalf's Ring what would happen to if one of the orcs had got hold of it?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Why so complicated? Eru would have used the Eagles to save Gandalf, that's his intervention.

Actually, I tend to think the eagles were divine intervention, sent by Manwe if not by Eru, since eagles are Manwe's favorites, and Gandalf/Olorin was of Manwe's people. I rather think there would have been some kind of intervention, regardless, as I don't believe Gandalf was meant to die at that juncture. Something would have happened to prevent it. I was merely speculating upon the "what if he DID jump?" line of thought.

[Lalwendë]

Only Eru knows what will unfold through time, the Valar do not, so they couldn't 'know' what lay in store for Gandalf and how important he would prove to be. They could have particular care for him and wish to intervene and save him, that's the extent of it. Eru, however, could intervene and warn them to be prepared to save Gandalf, being omnipotent.

My own take though is that the Valar and Eagles were simply watching over the band of travellers and ready to come in with their deus ex machina

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Actually, I tend to think the eagles were divine intervention, sent by Manwe if not by Eru, since eagles are Manwe's favorites, and Gandalf/Olorin was of Manwe's people. I rather think there would have been some kind of intervention, regardless, as I don't Gandalf was meant to die at that juncture. Something would have happened to prevent it. I was merely speculating upon the "what if he DID jump?" line of thought.

Yes, I agree. But it's just this "why to make it complicated when it can be easy". If Eru is omniscient, then the Eagles just would have come in time, whatever would have happened. But I know what you mean.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, I agree. But it's just this "why to make it complicated when it can be easy". If Eru is omniscient, then the Eagles just would have come in time, whatever would have happened. But I know what you mean.

Isn't that actually a bad thing? If this deus ex machina can suddenly drop on from a height and save our Hero whenever he's in a sticky situation, then doesn't that ruin the story? Not only does he not have to find the cunning way out of adversity but he can also do pretty much anything with no worries about getting harmed.

A device like that can put a Hero into some morally thorny situations too. If it so happens that whenever you're in danger someone/thing saves you, then questions start being asked about whether you should do more to help others. This was a point addressed in the recent series of Torchwood where Captain Jack, who cannot be killed, is seen not to be wholly moral as he does not fear putting others in mortal peril.

I prefer to think that the Valar intervened to help out 'one of their own' without any intervention from Eru and without any knowledge of Gandalf's future importance as it throws the rest of the story into moral jeopardy as Gandalf gets into many situations where he gets others into danger or could help more - if this deus ex machina to save him really exists.

As a 'one time only service' it works - Gandalf being sent back by Eru after being killed by the Balrog must be that one time. And after all, it's not the only time Eagles have come to help him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As a 'one time only service' it works - Gandalf being sent back by Eru after being killed by the Balrog must be that one time. And after all, it's not the only time Eagles have come to help him.

I am not sure what was your point, or how it was related to what I was talking about, but with this, I am saying - or was saying - that actually, if the Balrog incident was one time, as you say, then the Five Firtrees Incident was the other time, too (or vice versa, chronologically). Simply put, given what's been said in the very beginning few posts of this thread (especially Form's), this led me to realisation that actually the Five Firtrees Incident, when evaluated from looking back, very likely was as much of an important case as the Balrog one. (In case that we are not taking the other possible way of understanding it, as offered above by others, i.e. that it was just Bilbo's writing exaggeration and the situation actually wasn't as bad as it seemed.)

What lead me to this is:
1) Gandalf is about to die
2) Eagles appear at the right time in the right place
3) We have kind of outlined what would have happened if Gandalf died by then, he was NEEDED yet back then, it was certainly not the time for him to die yet. Whatever said about other occassions, but this time it just couldn't be allowed to happen.
4) Eagles are the device of the Powers, as we know.

Ergo, a scholar evaluating the set of events from some centuries away point of view would probably note and put into the Red Book of the Fourth Age: okay, it is clear that there was the divine intervention there. "Something else at work", perhaps, as Gandalf would say.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure what was your point, or how it was related to what I was talking about, but with this, I am saying - or was saying - that actually, if the Balrog incident was one time, as you say, then the Five Firtrees Incident was the other time, too (or vice versa, chronologically). Simply put, given what's been said in the very beginning few posts of this thread (especially Form's), this led me to realisation that actually the Five Firtrees Incident, when evaluated from looking back, very likely was as much of an important case as the Balrog one. (In case that we are not taking the other possible way of understanding it, as offered above by others, i.e. that it was just Bilbo's writing exaggeration and the situation actually wasn't as bad as it seemed.)

What lead me to this is:
1) Gandalf is about to die
2) Eagles appear at the right time in the right place
3) We have kind of outlined what would have happened if Gandalf died by then, he was NEEDED yet back then, it was certainly not the time for him to die yet. Whatever said about other occassions, but this time it just couldn't be allowed to happen.
4) Eagles are the device of the Powers, as we know.

Ergo, a scholar evaluating the set of events from some centuries away point of view would probably note and put into the Red Book of the Fourth Age: okay, it is clear that there was the divine intervention there. "Something else at work", perhaps, as Gandalf would say.

"Something else at work" yes, but not of the same calibre as Gandalf's return after the fall in Moria. More akin to his rescue from Isengard.

These are simple rescues, what happened in Moria was his physical being was destroyed and he was allowed to return and complete his work in Middle-earth, it's a much bigger deal.

I wouldn't rule out the Valar being involved in Gandalf's airborne rescues, but it's not something Eru needs to be concerned with. Nor something he would need to take a hand in, given that he takes very little hand in the affairs of Arda anyway and it's something his 'captains' can deal with, as t'were

If indeed Eru is there to put a hand in whenever Gandalf is in a fix, no matter if it's something a Valar or anyone else can help him with, then this puts Gandalf in a very difficult position. He effectively becomes this figure who can't be defeated at all, and as such there are dozens of situations where you could argue he ought to have done more, given that he had this amazing get-out clause.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Why so complicated? Eru would have used the Eagles to save Gandalf, that's his intervention. So in fact one cannot pass this "what would Eru do if the Eagles didn't turn up in time", as that's what he actually did, I would say. I think we are actually facing something here, Form is right and it never occured to me before:

Of course Eru would intervene. He intervenes here, I am sure. Form says it pretty well! What are the Eagles? Aren't they the device that comes up only in really important parts of the story? Are they not appearing only a few times of world-shaking importance - and one might as well ask, why the heck are they appearing now? We just gave ourselves the answer: to save Gandalf! To put it in a bit silly phrased words, "this was not the day for him to die yet".

I think this is right, the Eagles act largely as Eru's emissaries in Middle Earth, saving Gandalf at various times (in the Hobbit, then saving him from Saruman's prison at Orthanc, then carrying him from the peak of Zirakzigil), and then saving Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mount Doom.

However, perhaps the strongest evidence that the Eagles are Eru's emissaries comes from what they did not do. At any time I think the Eagles could have made a surgical strike into Mordor with Frodo (or whatever Ringbearer) as their passenger, reaching Mount Doom before any intervention would be possible. The fact that they did not do this indicates to me that they operate at the behest of Eru, who refrained from directly intervening in the destruction of the Ring (or for that matter, the destruction of Sauron)...

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

[I]At any time I think the Eagles could have made a surgical strike into Mordor with Frodo (or whatever Ringbearer) as their passenger, reaching Mount Doom before any intervention would be possible.[/I]

It sort of depends on exactly when in the stroy you are talking about. At the very beginning of the story, one might be able to make the argument that the distance between The shire and Orodruin is just too far for any eagle to fly, at least in one go without resting (and I suspect that on the ground, and exausted the eagles are a lot more vulnerable, and there aren't enough forests and mountains for the eagles to always have a guaranteed safe place to rest when they had to).

Later in the story of course the distance becomesless of a problem. However by the middle to end of the story, Mordor has something along the lines of an air force of his own (in the form of the winged beasts). I have little doubt that Sauron, once he saw the eagles enter his land (and espcailly as they got closer and he sense the ring) would send out this force to deal with them, and frankly I dont know what would happen in a battle between an winged beast and and Eagle (Middle Earth dogfight anyone?)

I'm not trying to say it wouldn't be poissible, but it woulnt be nearly as easy as it sound on the surface.

On the other hand in the alternate version of the Quest as proposed by Formendacil , i.e. the one where the trip to destroy the ring began right after the battle of the five armies, thats a different kettle of fish. In that case The Eagles really could have likey done such a strike. The distance to Orodruin from Erebor is a LOT less that it is from the Shire, so Eagles might have been able to make it in one go. Even if they did have to rest they could likey do it in fair safety (there are no mountains or forest between the two if you going absoultely staight, but the area is pretty sparsely populated so it would likey be safe for the eagles to rest on the ground (though amittedly since the area is so close to Dagorlad im not sure how good the water would be or whether there would be much food, it depend on how far east the devastation goes). Alternitey they could rest on the very southeasternmost edge of Mirkwood, though this puts them only Mirkwoods thickness away from Dol Guldur, which is probably a bit too close for comfort. In either case the Eagles would be a great asset in crossing the Ered Lithun since they could simple fly over them, possilby resting again on the highest peaks beyond the reach of any ground troops that might be in the area (the WK is still at Minas Morgul, and might have patrols in the mountains. From there its just a brief flight to Orodruin. Its a long journey and not without its risks but it might be doable and at that point the eagles would have no opposition at all as there would be no winged beasts yet and the only other flyers Sauron could have would be crows, which would pose little threat to Eagles.

Ultimely your point is right though, if the Eagles are sent divinely they can't do any of this without interfering.