The Military uses of the Palantiri.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

One question is why Sauron didn't spot the Rohirrim appearing on the flank of the Pelennor Fields. However it seems that you must know where and when to look, and his attention was probably taken by the encounter at the gate. Also, the Rohirrim rode through the forest on their march, so likely not spottable, and even if Sauron had immediately seen them forming up, he would pesumably have had to send a Nazgul or other messenger to Gondor, which takes some time even for Winged Beasts.

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

I probably could have phrased that better, in that Sauron really wasn't 'blindsided' by the Rohirrim.
It was just that Aragorn declaring himself induced Sauron to move before he'd intended, and caused him to focus on Minas Tirith.
Sauron's plan already had been to attack Minas Tirith, which he saw as his most dangerous obstacle. It was the nearest to his realm at any rate, and from a logistical and tactical standpoint would be the first place he should strike. If he could capture Gondor's capital early, it likely would be a very short war, and even the Heir of Isildur would be much less reduced as a threat to him.
Also, Sauron had given thought to the Rohirrim, and knew they would probably come to the aid of Minas Tirith. That's why he had an army on the road in Anórien, to occupy and at least slow them down. With that in place, he disregarded that threat, and turned his attention to Minas Tirith, which he thought to quickly take and make a major step toward his victory.
Something else about the potential Sauron saw in the Ithil-stone is significant.
He didn't really need it for remote-viewing anyway, did he? Didn't the Eye fulfil the same function?

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents....

UT The Palantíri

So, the palantir in Sauron's possession really wasn't terribly important to him. At any rate, it doesn't seem to have been much use to him until Saruman and Denethor began to use their Stones.

[JeffF.]

I would think that the Kingdoms in Exile would have kept the stones in nearly continuous usage. Given their knowledge of astronomy (Unfinished Tales Description of Numenor) they must have known about the difference in sunrise and sunset at given longitudes and would have used the stones to see events in far off lands. During normal routine there was probably an agreed upon time where the Stewards of two stones would be scheduled to communicate with each other while the Steward of the Chief Stone in Osgiliath would listen in/observe on. Aside from military uses I would think that their equivalent of scholars, scientists and explorers would have applied for time on the stones to use them for applications in their areas of expertise.

I wonder what special properties the Stone of Amon Sul had? It is described as the chief stone of the North and is known to be physically large but it apparently does not have the same ability as the Stone of Osgiliath yet I find it hard to believe it was merely a large version of the minor stones with no unique properties.

[Alfirin]

I have no textual basis for this, but I've always though of the Amon Sul stone as being sort of a "clearing house" for the northern stones, that is, if a message needed to be sent from the northern stones to the southern ones, it had to go through the Amon Sul stone. It's mentioned in the UT that the size of the stones has an effect on how far they can see/communicate; it's possible that, given thieir size, the other two just didn't have the range to send a message to the southern stones on thier own. (Yes, I know that, technincally, the Elendil stone (the one that looks only West), which was "normal" sized, had an even longer distance to look, but its fairly obvious that that one is "special" and may be made differently than the others) The Orthanc "master stone" is likey large enough to allow its range to extend from one end of Kingdoms to the other, but the "ordinary" ones may not be.

A question of my own whne they say that the Orthanc stone could see/and evesdrop "all of the others" does that incude or exclude the Elendil stone, seem to me that evesdropping on a stone that can only look in one direction (and a direction that it was unlikey trouble could come from) would be all but pointless.

[Inziladun]

Alfirin, I think you are correct in your comments regarding the Stone of Amon Sûl. The UT essay on the Palantíri says in Footnote 16:

The Kings of Arthedain....maintained a special warden at Amon Sûl, whose Stone was held to be the chief of the Northern palantíri, being the largest and most powerful and the one through which communication with Gondor was mainly conducted.

As for 'eavesdropping' on the Elendil Stone at Emyn Beraid, that could not be done. By themselves the Stones did not transmit anything. It needed a surveyor at the other end for any connexion to be established, and there is no evidence the Elves in the region ever used the Stone. It does appear to be a 'one way' Stone in any case, only looking to Eressëa (and the Masterstone of Avallónë, according to the Silmarillion).

[Boromir88]

There are many limitations to the palantiri, that would make them poor for military uses. The main problem is you have to know where to look, and if Sauron was planning to launch a surprise attack, how would the person viewing the palantir know where to look...it's supposed to be a surprise.

That's just one of it's limitations though. These aren't clear, crisp, perfect images. The palantiri rely on light and shading. When Pippin looks into it, Sauron thinks the palantir was still in Orthanc...that is why he asks for Saruman and says he will be sending a messenger. Sauron had no idea Pippin was camping outside somewhere in the middle of Rohan, well removed from Orthanc.

Another problem is it takes a significant amount of will to even look into them. Tolkien in the UT writes that the Stewards eventually became rightful owners of the palantiri (as were Elendil and his heirs). As the rightful owners this gave them an advantage over someone like Sauron, who purely relied on his inherent power to use them. However, the only Steward whoever dared to use the palantir was Denethor. And he had spent most of his life as Ecthelion's heir studying all the records and lore about them. Denethor had begun to use the palantir after his wife died, and there are two different strains that Tolkien talks about which Denethor under goes. The mental strain of simply using the palantir, which caused Denethor to look physically aged, and the strain Sauron causes when he discovers Denethor using it. The combination of the two strains would eventually end up breaking Denethor's mind. Aragorn who also was a rightful owner of the stone, doubted his strength when he uses it to confront Sauron, and that was barely enough. Aragorn was pretty drained after using it.

So imagine someone without the mental abilities of someone like Sauron or Saruman, or someone who was not a rightful owner, as Aragorn or Denethor were trying to use it. Plus, not to mention Tolkien points out in the UT that Aragorn and Denethor, had a strong mental will, which was necessary to use the palantir even for being rightful owners.

The only benefit is that the palantiri cannot be made to lie, however they can be manipulated, as Sauron was able to do with Saruman and Denethor. Denethor didn't discover the Corsair ships, or Sauron's numbers, Sauron was essentially feeding Denethor images that Sauron wanted him to see. This increased the despair and hopelessness in Denethor, which led to Denethor losing his mind.

All in all, the palantir would be poor objects to use for military purposes. The person has to know where to look, they can unintentionally lead to bad intel simply because the images aren't clear and crisp. Afterall it led Sauron to make the mistake of believing Saruman was well and good in Orthanc and just with-holding a treat for Sauron. This error, caused essentially by the palantir's unclarity, leads Gandalf to take full advantage of Sauron having to play catch up and discover the error. Also, the viewer has to have a strong mental will to even use it, whether the viewer is a rightful owner or not, simply because of the strain it puts on the person looking into it.

It's interesting, despite the nature of the palantiri to not be able to lie, they are actually best used in acts of deception. Sauron does it with Denethor, and then Sauron himself is deceived by the palantir because of Pippin and Aragorn.