Saruman's death

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet.

Nay, what I had in mind was what seemed to be Tolkien's most immediate fear, something he seemed to consider most likely of all possibilities, and that was not just being slain, nor by Saruman (that was really just a distinct possibility that was only hinted), but that they turned to evil themselves. THAT was why I said they would be locked up.

Originally Posted by UT, Istari, note #3

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

[miriena]

Well, my personal opinion is also that indeed, the Western wind was Manwe forbidding Saruman's return. But perhaps he not only denied him the return, maybe he banished Saruman from the West of Middle Earth as well. It was now free of Darkness (on a large scale anyway, for the time being) and Saruman's spirit had no business left there. It would be a sad fate--but perhaps proper punishment--for a once-powerful being to exist somewhere as a shadow of its former self, passing endless days. Who knows, maybe no "high orders" ever came regarding what to do with Saruman, he was now a useless, deprecated tool and the only thing that was clear is that the way West was closed for him. But I don't think that those up high in the food chain considered him anywhere near the same level of vileness as, for example, Sauron. Breeding his warriors may have been the only "major" offense of his, but even so. He wasn't the first one to do something similar, on him lies the fault of a follower, not the inventor. My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by miriena

My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

Perhaps, vile as his deeds in interspecies genetics were, he could still have found forgiveness were it not for his unrepentant attitude. But any chance to redeem himself he had rejected time after time. I think Gandalf pretty well said as much.

'But alas for Saruman! I fear nothing more can be made of him. He has withered altogether'.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Perhaps, vile as his deeds in interspecies genetics were, he could still have found forgiveness were it not for his unrepentant attitude. But any chance to redeem himself he had rejected time after time. I think Gandalf pretty well said as much.

Exactly. In my opinion Saruman was not beyond redemption at all, and my personal belief is that in fact, the only thing which was responsible for his fate was that he continuously kept rejecting the redemption that was being offered to him over and over again. Actually I think he was being offered the chance more times than anybody else in M-E.

[miriena]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Exactly. In my opinion Saruman was not beyond redemption at all, and my personal belief is that in fact, the only thing which was responsible for his fate was that he continuously kept rejecting the redemption that was being offered to him over and over again. Actually I think he was being offered the chance more times than anybody else in M-E.

Yes, this is what makes me feel that chances are, he didn't end up alongside the darkest of the Dark. Maybe he was offered another chance to redeem himself, but not as what he used to be. Or maybe just sent off somewhere where he could do no more harm. Or just... shoo'd off like a piece of lint from an eyelash. Maybe someone is hoping his senses will return to him eventually, or that he still has the power to do something important even though his original task did work out well.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

It may also be worth it to bear in mind, when considering Curunir's's fate, that he also, like Gorthaur, poured out his spirit and power into the making of a ring and the dominion and control of lesser beings, along with the dark sorcery involved in genetic manipulation. The degree to which he himself had dissipated and distributed his native power is unknown, but what CAN be known by these tidbits of evidence is that whatever his fate, it appeared to be the same as that of Gorthaur because both became wisps of powerless shadows, bereft of form and substance, and not welcomed in any proper circles among decent folk.

[Morthoron]

Although the fates of Saruman and Sauron are not revealed, I believe a central assumption can be divined for both of them. Tolkien may have eschewed allegory, but his symbolism is quite apparent.

First, Saruman's demise:

…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a cold sigh dissolved into nothing.

Now, Sauron's exit:

...there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was blown away...

The emphasized phrasing in both quotes are mine.

Although it is clearer in Saruman's case (particularly when Tolkien refers metaphorically to the grey mist appearing like a pale shrouded figure gazing almost imploringly to the West), it is plain that a great wind, like the pounding of a judge's gavel, passed final judgement on both of them and dispersed their spirits forever. Unlike Morgoth, whose spiritual and/or physical manifestation was imprisoned until the final battle at the end of all things, Sauron and Saruman would remain incorporeal and impotent, and would no longer plague Middle-earth.

That a "great wind" or "cold wind" should propitiously be summoned at such precise junctures (a 'cold' wind in Saruman's case, because he had betrayed his sacred trust) indicates, in my mind at least, the intervention of Eru, or perhaps Manwe, because "the winds and airs were his servants, and he was lord of air, wind, and clouds in Arda."