Elves and Dunland

[The Mouth of Sauron]

There's something else.

If Elves visited Fangorn from time to time, one of the 3 eldest Ents, Skinbark - and his people - lived on the high WESTERN slopes of the Misty Mountains, which were presumably directly above Dunland.

So rather than Gildorian companies reaching Fangorn via the Gap of Rohan, they may have taken a short-cut through Dunland to reach Skinbark ?

[Rumil]

Nice discussion,

I've been wondering about the applicability of folklore here. Now British (and probably more generally European) folklore had the concept of the 'High Hunt', where, usually on a dark, warm, inexplicably windy, witchy, twitchy sort of summer's night, often Midsummer, the faerie / sidhe / elves held a great annual hunt.

The King of the Elves rides out with his huntsmen, either pursuing the White Stag, or clearing the land of the 'uncanny' creatures that have escaped from the faerie realm over the last year. Their pursuit is wild and unrestrained, galloping across hill, wood and vale with no let or hindrance.

For the honest countyman, this is a time to bring in the beasts from the field, securely bolt your front door, and heed no nightly noises whatsoever. If you have the wrong sort of elves it might be just as well to put out a saucer of milk and make sure the horseshoe is extra-securely nailed over the door. All will be well in the morning, apart maybe from the odd missing chicken or shifted roof-slate. Woe betide the lad or lass that ventures outdoors upon such a night, for, often-as-not they're never seen again, or turn up years and years later but fay and strangely changed.

So what's the Middle-Earth relevance? We know the elves, like practically all nobility, loved to hunt. The Noldor were great hunters in Beleriand (even chasing down the Petty-Dwarves), Thranduil and his folk often rode out hunting in Mirkwood, and the White Stag was seen by Bilbo et al on their trek.

I could see the elven aristocracy of Rivendell riding out on a midsummer's night, led by the brethren Elladan and Elrohir or Elrond himself perhaps. Maybe they hunt the White Stag, maybe they scour the lands of orcs and trolls. Some years they go North into the Ettenmoors, some years North-West into the Trollshaws or South West across the plains and into the Angle, sometimes South into Hollin, and occasionally they carry on through Hollin to Dunland. East they go not.

Those nights the men of Dunland retire to their forts and roundhouses, build up the fire and bar the door, knowing that uncanny folk beyond their understanding are abroad.

Maybe !

What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I could see the elven aristocracy of Rivendell riding out on a midsummer's night, led by the brethren Elladan and Elrohir or Elrond himself perhaps. Maybe they hunt the White Stag, maybe they scour the lands of orcs and trolls. Some years they go North into the Ettenmoors, some years North-West into the Trollshaws or South West across the plains and into the Angle, sometimes South into Hollin, and occasionally they carry on through Hollin to Dunland. East they go not.

I wouldn't think they'd be looking for orcs and trolls around Dunland. As far as I know, that land was free of such creatures excepting Sauron's march into Eriador in the Second Age, and of course Saruman's later excursions into orc-man eugenics.
A simple hunting foray into the area is possible, I guess. But if that was the case those Rivendelves sure went far afield to get the best game.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

There's something else.

If Elves visited Fangorn from time to time, one of the 3 eldest Ents, Skinbark - and his people - lived on the high WESTERN slopes of the Misty Mountains, which were presumably directly above Dunland.

So rather than Gildorian companies reaching Fangorn via the Gap of Rohan, they may have taken a short-cut through Dunland to reach Skinbark ?

Nay, I would not think so. With referrence to the above, let us keep in mind that Fangorn was no tourist attraction for the Elves. I believe that until Legolas' days, hardly any Elf set his foot there in a long time. Remember Celeborn's warnings to the Fellowship. Lórien Elves did not go to Fangorn, they respected each others' borders and did not have any intercourse for ages, possibly since the constitution of the realm of Lórien. And if the Lórien Elves, who were forest folk and lived close by, did not come there, what more the Rivendell Elves, who lived far away and the journey was long and perilous - and either very un-Elvish, through Gap of Isen (while Saruman was still an ally), or dangerous through the mountains. But like I said: I believe no Elf actually visited Fangorn before Legolas.

Western slopes of the Misty Mountains are not that much anyway, speaking of Skinbark. I am not sure, I would have to check in the books, but around the Gap of Isen, being on the western slopes does not necessarily mean being west of Isengard. What would Skinbark do there anyway? I guess he might have as well been dwelling close to Fangorn's western end, near Isengard.

Originally Posted by Rumil

I could see the elven aristocracy of Rivendell riding out on a midsummer's night, led by the brethren Elladan and Elrohir or Elrond himself perhaps. Maybe they hunt the White Stag, maybe they scour the lands of orcs and trolls. Some years they go North into the Ettenmoors, some years North-West into the Trollshaws or South West across the plains and into the Angle, sometimes South into Hollin, and occasionally they carry on through Hollin to Dunland. East they go not.

Those nights the men of Dunland retire to their forts and roundhouses, build up the fire and bar the door, knowing that uncanny folk beyond their understanding are abroad.

Maybe !

What do you think?

I would go with Inziladun on this one, and I would add that the Elves we know certainly do not resemble the ones from the Wild Hunt (or however it's called properly in English) much. The Wood Elves of Thranduil did something like that, but I can't imagine the Rivendellers doing so - why would they go to such a distant land? The forests of Rhudaur were quite good for hunting AND also dangerous enough, aside from that, the diminishing Elves were really not probably in a mood to make long trips to Dunland just to hunt, they had enough to do with the orcs and trolls around their own homelands. No, I do not believe that this is the case, at least not here in Dunland. Maybe in ages past - but it would have to be really long, long time past, before even Men came there, if ever. There never have been many Elven settlements around Dunland, not of the sort that Elves would go hunting from there.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Nice discussion,

I've been wondering about the applicability of folklore here. Now British (and probably more generally European) folklore had the concept of the 'High Hunt', where, usually on a dark, warm, inexplicably windy, witchy, twitchy sort of summer's night, often Midsummer, the faerie / sidhe / elves held a great annual hunt.

... and the White Stag was seen by Bilbo et al on their trek.

I could see the elven aristocracy of Rivendell riding out on a midsummer's night, led by the brethren Elladan and Elrohir or Elrond himself perhaps. Maybe they hunt the White Stag, maybe they scour the lands of orcs and trolls. Some years they go North into the Ettenmoors, some years North-West into the Trollshaws or South West across the plains and into the Angle, sometimes South into Hollin, and occasionally they carry on through Hollin to Dunland. East they go not.

Those nights the men of Dunland retire to their forts and roundhouses, build up the fire and bar the door, knowing that uncanny folk beyond their understanding are abroad.

Maybe !

What do you think?

I think that I love Rumil's post even though, at first, I cound't think of anythingthat might support it. But then...

How about these?

Wild 'Hunt' # 1:

‘This is Glorfindel, who dwells in the house of Elrond,’ said Strider.
‘Hail, and well met at last!’ said the Elf-lord to Frodo. ‘I was sent from Rivendell to look for you. We feared that you were in danger upon the road.’
‘Then Gandalf has reached Rivendell?’ cried Frodo joyfully.
‘No. He had not when I departed; but that was nine days ago,’ answered Glorfindel. ‘Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin,* learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.
‘It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the Bridge of Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago. Three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward. I came also upon two others, but they turned away southward. …”

Wild 'HUNT' # 2:

(Bilbo said…’…) But if you ask me, Elrond will send out a fair number, when the reports come in. Have they started yet, Gandalf?’
‘Yes,’ said the wizard. ‘Some of the scouts have been sent out already. More will go tomorrow. Elrond is sending Elves, and they will get in touch with the Rangers, and maybe with Thranduil’s folk in Mirkwood. And Aragorn has gone with Elrond’s sons. We shall have to scour the lands all round for many long leagues before any move is made. So cheer up, Frodo! You will probably make quite a long stay here.’

…

The hobbits had been nearly two months in the House of Elrond, and November had gone by with the last shreds of autumn, and December was passing, when the scouts began to return. Some had gone north beyond the springs of the Hoarwell into the Ettenmoors; and others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad, where the old North Road crossed the river by a ruined town. Many had gone east and south; and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair. The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond.

[Inziladun]

Point taken about Elrond's scounting parties. However, even with one or two Elves making it as far as Tharbad then, I'd think it doubtful any of the Dunlendings would have seen them. After all, the scouts were surely acting as secretly as they could.

[mark12_30]

Hollin (Eregion) borders Dunland. And long ago (how long since the forest receeded?) Dunland may have been very woody indeed. In Hollin's heyday I can imagine many wild hunts, perhaps through the extended forest that Treebeard described.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

agree, my hunting proposal is largely speculation.

Cheers Mark12.30! And in the second quote Gandalf does mention elven 'scouring' as well as 'scouting'.

If the elves indeed went a-hunting, I think that this might , if you like, have spiritual or psychic significance. (Beep beep beep speculation alert state 2!). As well as scouring the land of orcs and wolves etc, could they have also scoured the land of malign entities 'from the other side'?

Certainly all remark on the 'wholesomeness' of the lands that elves inhabit, even realms lacking one of the Three, or an abandoned country such as Hollin. What do I mean by malign entities? We-elll, er, hooom, naturally things that go bump in the night, maybe including minor wights, left-over victims of Morgul blade stabbings, Mewlips perhaps, houseless fea and whatnot, you know, generally dark, shadowy, malevolant sort of customers.

I'd expect that, what with great elf lords such as Glorfindel 'revealing themselves on the other side', such unpleasant types would slink back to their holes in the Mountains or the Darkwood, leaving behind a lighter, happier atmosphere in their absence. Therefore the Hunt could be a duty as well as a pleasure, and the world just that bit less sparkly in the absence of the Quendi.

(PS Legate and everyone- see if you can guess my riddle in the Quiz Room - shameless plug )

[The Might]

Firstly, Legate's idea that Elves still came to Hollin in a kind of pilgrimage and that the Dunlendings saw this as their country as well makes a lot of sense to me and is an easy explanation for this "riddle".

Hunting and scouting parties passing through also make sense, again something I had not taken into account.