What was Frodo's temptation

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But as Gordis has argued, and I now agree, Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

I can't really see that Frodo, or any Hobbit (including Gollum) had, or ever had, a desire to dominate and order the lives of others. Wasn't Hobbit humility, coupled with mercy, what allowed Bilbo to keep the Ring for so long without being completely overcome by it, and what gave Frodo the mental fortitude to get the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom?

[Boromir88]

and what gave Frodo the mental fortitude to get the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom?~Inziladun

Simple, Frodo. If he had temptations to be the Dark Lord from before coming across the Ring (something I am not convinced of), then his ability to resist the Ring must come from Frodo too...correct?

"I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will."~The Council of Elrond

Words of wisdom from Elrond that I share.

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.~Letter 246

Sorry for a long quote, but I think we can learn a lot about Frodo and the Ring from this letter.

This is Tolkien's opinion, he also leaves the possibility that Frodo was a failure, as he "caved" to the Ring, he claims it as his own. For whatever reason, he fails and sees himself as a Dark Lord. However, Frodo had nothing left. His entire strength and endurance was spent.

It's not a matter Frodo having some desire to be a Dark Lord in his heart, while he was wasting space in Bag End. There is a difference between the Ring's power against individuals like Boromir and Gandalf, and the Ring's power against its bearer. Frodo took the Ring (where its essential power of deceipt was to fill people with the delusion of supreme power) to the place where it's power was at a maximum. In fact, I believe the only place where the Ring could get complete control over Frodo would be in the Sammath Naur. How many other characters in the books would you be able to say that about? That the only place to fall to the Ring would be in the Sammath Naur? That is certainly a lot different from Boromir having to make a moral choice while he's alone with Frodo near Amon Hen.

Boromir was corrupted, because right from the reader's first meeting of him, he views the Ring as a weapon that would save Gondor.

Gollum kills for the Ring, because he thought he deserved it.

Frodo doesn't "take" the Ring from anyone, it is left to him by Bilbo. And when he's instructed that the Ring has to be destroyed, Frodo says that's what he wishes...the Ring's destruction. That is a bigger sign of Frodo's character, than the tired, hungry, twisted, spent of strength and endurance, and delusional Frodo we see in the Sammath Naur, where the Ring's power was at it's greatest influence. Not to mention Frodo endured all that pain to get the Ring to the place where it could be destroyed. It wasn't Frodo finally caving into some hidden desire to be a Ring-lord, it was a matter of the Ring being greater than a physically and mentally beaten down Frodo.

As an aside, that is completely off topic, but if you want to blame someone, blame Gandalf. I'm in the opinion, dealing with conspiratory lore, that Gandalf is Sauron.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's not a matter Frodo having some desire to be a Dark Lord in his heart, while he was wasting space in Bag End.

It wasn't Frodo finally caving into some hidden desire to be a Ring-lord, it was a matter of the Ring being greater than a physically and mentally beaten down Frodo.

Great thread that really gets to the heart of the matter. And some very insightful observations.

I am inclined, however, to agree overall with Boromir88 that this was not really a case of Frodo's desire to be the Dark Lord, it was a case of the Ring finally destroying Frodo's personality and replacing it with its own. There on the brink of Sammath Naur, it is the Ring pure and simple talking. Here I think the Ring has taken on an identity that is distinct from that of Sauron's, despite Gandalf's statement early in the book that the "Dark Lord and the Ring are one". Frodo's failure, implied by Tolkien, is a failure to resist the destructive power of the Ring, and therefore a failure of strength, rather than moral purpose. Gollum at the end is also completely gone, fried to a crisp (before he falls into the volcano)...

If in the case of Frodo it was merely a matter of his basic character flaws somehow coming to the surface, as might be suggested by too close a comparison with Boromir, then one would expect the description of the gradual decline of Frodo as he approached Sammath Naur to emphasize the surfacing of inner demons. But Tolkien's description emphasizes instead the external malevolence of the Ring of Fire, which appears as an almost physical force beating Frodo down. It is a contest of wills here, and Frodo cannot match that of Sauron...


It seems that Frodo was chosen by Elrond and Gandalf for the quest chiefly because they knew he came with no hidden agendas for power, most similar in this respect to Bilbo, who was able in the end to give it up of his own free will (I doubt we would have had the same conclusion if Bilbo was poised on the brink of Sammath Naur, however).

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities. One might argue in fact that Boromir never got to the same point of total loss of personality as Frodo does at Sammath Naur, but then he never possessed the Ring.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities. One might argue in fact that Boromir never got to the same point of total loss of personality as Frodo does at Sammath Naur, but then he never possessed the Ring.

Exactly. I would say that in Boromir's and Isildur's case, the Ring offers them what they want and so uses their desire for power to make them want the ring, whereas for Frodo (and the same may have gone for Sam- he was able to give up the Ring even in Mordor and having been offered the chance to make it green) had no desire. Because of this, the Ring had no footholds and I think that in the end it just took control of his mind by force instead of sneaking in the way it did with others. In this way, I think it broke his will more than it did Isildur's, and would have done for Boromir, because they still had an agenda and a plan, whereas Frodo's mind became the Ring's, to the point that he had no will of his own left at Sammath Naur.

[Mnemosyne]

*cough*

Originally Posted by CSteefel

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities.

Focusing on Isildur here...

1). It does not come on the brink of the Sammath Naur. That was only in movieverse, creating the beautiful plothole of "Why didn't Elrond just push the idiot in???" It does take place in Mordor, but presumably since Sauron's just been completely dispersed I don't think it had the same kind of fell power that it did in Frodo's time.

2). Regarding Eonwe's point. There is no evidence that Isildur wanted to use the Ring for the increase of his own power per se--at least, not the way that Boromir did. After all, they'd just beaten the bad guys, right? It makes a lot more sense for the flaw the Ring exploited to deal a lot more with the losses in Isildur's life: father, brother, and all of Numenor. You could possibly argue that it offered him the power to bring those back in some way, shape, or form... maybe...

Just trying to set a few things straight here. Still irked at PJ's (and the subsequent shift in fandom perception) massacre of the tragedy of Isildur here.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

2). Regarding Eonwe's point. There is no evidence that Isildur wanted to use the Ring for the increase of his own power per se--at least, not the way that Boromir did. After all, they'd just beaten the bad guys, right? It makes a lot more sense for the flaw the Ring exploited to deal a lot more with the losses in Isildur's life: father, brother, and all of Numenor. You could possibly argue that it offered him the power to bring those back in some way, shape, or form... maybe...

It's true that it didn't offer him power in the same way that it did Boromir, but by taking the ring as an heirloom it is symbolising that he has beaten Sauron, and "has the power to wear his ring", in a way. By making him take it and not destroy it, it is offering him the chance to feel powerful. Even more so with the weregild idea. He is claiming weregild off the most powerful being in ME at the time, so obviously it makes him feel powerful, like he is equal to Sauron and can dare to take something from him (Sauron is "dead" at the time, but still, it may have added to his ego a bit too much).

Of course, what I'm saying is that the Ring was giving Isildur the illusion of power, and Isildur's probable desire (defeating Sauron) had already been achieved. So, it just made itself look attractive to him, and convinced him that taking it would be consolation for his father's death (possibly a desire of his).

But yes, in no way was it suggesting to him such grand visions as it did to Boromir.



Note that I had not originally planned to put him there (in the first sentence), but because he was there later in the paragraph, for some reason I assumed that he should be there too, and changed the grammar accordingly. This is just a new thought after realising my mistake.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*cough*
Focusing on Isildur here...

1). It does not come on the brink of the Sammath Naur. That was only in movieverse, creating the beautiful plothole of "Why didn't Elrond just push the idiot in???" It does take place in Mordor, but presumably since Sauron's just been completely dispersed I don't think it had the same kind of fell power that it did in Frodo's time.

Good catch! And I am always getting ****ed at others for mixing up the movie and the book.

Of course, with Isildur it is not completely clear how much he knew about the Ring and its dangers. Certainly he knew it belonged to Sauron, but it is not so clear that he knew that the Ring would overthrow his mind. With Frodo, but also with Boromir, they have the benefit of extensive discussions with Gandalf and Elrond, and then later even with Galadriel, about the outcome of taking the Ring and trying to use it (Boromir chose not to believe this, while Frodo did).

[Mnemosyne]

I'm honestly not even sure if I want to know. I love the things that Tolkien left silent (especially about Frodo) for what they are.

Personally, I think that whatever the Ring had tried in the past Frodo was able to beat down sufficiently that eventually it became a simple war of attrition. Frodo doesn't forget the Shire because he doesn't want it preserved as his mental refuge (he says WAY back in Shadow of the Past that even knowing the Shire exists will comfort him); he forgets it because that's one of his lifelines and the Ring is cutting all of them down.

And this would be the point to bring up that famous "I do not choose" line, and the brief scene where Frodo asks Sam to take his hands so he can't take the Ring. That doesn't sound like temptation to me, at least not in its classic sense.

I've seen lots of various answers to this in (where else?) fan fic but they're all based on the fanauthors' interpretations of Frodo and not on canon.

The only canon-based theory that comes to mind right now is the idea of personal recognition: Frodo despairs at Minas Morgul because he's been too late and everyone is going to be killed before he has a chance to do anything. How he masters himself is by then reminding himself that he has to do it anyway, even if no one will know. Similarly (from the same time that he talks about the Shire being a spiritual comfort) he mentions about how dull everyone there is, which when coupled with the note in Letters about how there was still probably after all this time some part of him that wanted to be recognized back home for his deeds (Frodo seems to be pretty uncomfortable with praise abroad) I think that this could have been one flaw for the Ring to exploit (if indeed we are going with that theory about the Ring's nature).

Finally, this is not a false dilemma. He could have been going through anything and more. But whatever it was that finally cracked Frodo, it must have been a pretty small temptation in its natural state if he resisted it this long.

Apologies for the rambles, but if anyone does want to get to the bottom of this (and I for one think that the "Dark Lord" interpretation, while dramatic, is too simple) I think we need to redefine some of the assumptions that go into the question.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

The only canon-based theory that comes to mind right now is the idea of personal recognition: Frodo despairs at Minas Morgul because he's been too late and everyone is going to be killed before he has a chance to do anything. How he masters himself is by then reminding himself that he has to do it anyway, even if no one will know. Similarly (from the same time that he talks about the Shire being a spiritual comfort) he mentions about how dull everyone there is, which when coupled with the note in Letters about how there was still probably after all this time some part of him that wanted to be recognized back home for his deeds (Frodo seems to be pretty uncomfortable with praise abroad) I think that this could have been one flaw for the Ring to exploit (if indeed we are going with that theory about the Ring's nature).

Nice to see you posting here, Mnemi! And I think you're on the right track with this.
Let's not forget that, apart from his few younger friends, Frodo was pretty much an outsider in the Shire, just like Bilbo before him. The other hobbits thought them both eccentric, to say the least, if not worse. Some even suspected Frodo of conspiring with Gandalf to do away with Bilbo and get at his money!
Couldn't Frodo's deepest desire - his one 'flaw', if that's not too strong a word - have been something as simple and human as the wish to be accepted and respected by the community he lived in? To come home and be able to tell all those narrow-minded, self-complacent Grubbs, Chubbs, Proudfeet and Burrowses that they would all be dead or enslaved if the Mad Bagginses hadn't saved them? To make them see and admit how wrong they'd been all the time - not only about him and Bilbo, but also about Elves and Dragons and the world in general?
Understandable as this desire was, it was something the Ring could exploit, twist and distort. 'Just claim me, Frodo, and once we've overcome the Dark Lord, they'll have to acknowledge you as their saviour. We'll make them love you and give you the honour you deserve. We'll teach 'em, yes we will, my precious...'

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Couldn't Frodo's deepest desire - his one 'flaw', if that's not too strong a word - have been something as simple and human as the wish to be accepted and respected by the community he lived in?

I don't think you are on the right tack here. If t were his deepest desire, he could have worked in this direction long before the Quest and obtained wondrous results. Frodo was a Baggins, the wealthy heir of a very respectable family, the owner of Bag End, not some poor gardener or miller. He could have easily become Mayor of the Shire if he had just set his mind on it (and the Ring he kept could have helped a lot). But it seems the attitude of other hobbits towards him bothered him little. He was more interested in lonely strolls, chatting with Elves and Dwarves and reading books.

[Formendacil]

I've been following this thread from Day 1--because it's a Fordhim thread, and words cannot express how happy that makes me--but I've been unable--sadly--to think of anything to add. Going through the additional half of the thread added since yesterday, however, I feel like precious little--or no--mention is made of Bilbo, which is rather odd.

Perhaps the thing is that Bilbo, like Frodo, does not have a given temptation in The Lord of the Rings--unless the desire to hide from Sackville-Bagginses counts. I discount The Hobbit here, not so much because it's non-canonical (still spoiling for that canonicity debate ) as because, admittedly, Tolkien's perception of the Ring's effects changed from the writing of the one work to the other--indeed, in the first, there were no ill-effects for the Ring was not known yet as Sauron's.

Still, we see enough of Bilbo in The Lord of the Rings that you would think we might see his temptation. Not so. Like Frodo, we see that he desires possession of the Ring, but that's about it. Even in the pivotal parting scene at the end of "A Long-Expected Party," we see his projected descent into Gollumry, but we see no temptation. Nor, indeed, is one hinted at.

It occurs to me, perhaps, that insofar as Bilbo and Frodo are remarkably alike, Bilbo can be treated as a control scenario for Frodo--a Frodo who did not have to go to Mordor and to Sammath Naur. Granted, there are legitimate personality differences between the two; Frodo is not Bilbo's alter ego, born exactly 78 years later. All the same, Gandalf especially suggests on a few occasions that they are extraordinarily similar on the points that matter to this discussion--on the points of being Ringbearer.

Gandalf says of Bilbo:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past

'Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off--before it would be safe to see him again, for instance.

My point here being that Bilbo--despite doing more than any Ringbearer save Gollum in terms of use of the Ring--does not at any point seem to awaken thoughts of domination and power, even though it is patently clear from his actions upon parting with the ring that, in Gandalf's words, he:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past

He said and did things then that filled me was a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work.

Sauron, by this time, is seeking the One Ring, I believe, and until Frodo ventures to Mordor it might be fair to say that the Ring, of its own volition, might not have worked harder on a Ringbearer than that night to retain its hold on Bilbo--so it is impossible, I think, to say that the Ring was merely dormant in Bilbo's time, as one might say of Gollum.

Obviously, I'm finding it impossible to see Bilbo having any dreams of grandeur or temptations generally--which supports the hypothesis that Frodo, in what might be called his "natural state" would not either, since it removes him from the category of uniqueness.



*Oh*

It has also occurred to me, reading through, to speculate about whether or not Frodo's encounter with the Morgûl-blade might have affected him. We know he was never the same after. Again, from Gandalf's perspective:

Originally Posted by Many Meetings

But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside the coverlet.

Now, admittedly, a physical change in Frodo need not equal a change in his mental framework. However, as it seems to me that the Wraith-ifying process is related to the Ring's effects on the Ringbearer (Hobbit toughness is specifically linked to their slowness at becoming Wraiths), one has to wonder to what extent, if any, the Morgûl-knife had an effect on the process.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I just wanted to say here how much I am admiring Tolkien's craft in all this. The mere fact that we not only can but are having this debate is I think the point. Tolkien did not give us a hero with an easily understood and simple motivation...either for good or for his eventual 'evil' (e.g. his 'failure'). I'm really quite at a loss to think of any hero in heroic literature who is so very opaque on this score. You always know what they are 'about' and what their motivations are. Heroes are simple.

And I admit that I have in the past been rather too simple minded in my approach to Frodo. I figured he was simple too: Ring must be destroyed, so I will destroy it, Ring too strong, but it still gets destroyed by Frodo's goodness. The goodness has never been questionable or dubious to me. Not even mysterious. But now it is.

Nerwen put it best: "But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?" That's what we're working through here...a set of differing interpretations of the book. No big deal in normal circumstances, but what we're differing on, what is mysterious, remains:

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

c) why is it that his corruption/seduction by the Ring (and is it seduction or corruption--very different things) is so very different in nature from what happens to others?

I still think that it's too simple to brush aside the observation that Frodo was tempted in a way qualitatively (and disturbingly) different from the others. They all wanted to destroy Mordor with their own vision of the world (with them at the helm of course), while Frodo seemed to want simply to take over Mordor. He doesn't wish to mimic the Dark Lord and his works but to usurp him. Chilling stuff if you think of it. To paraphrase Aragorn in Moria, this hobbit is indeed made of sterner stuff than I'd imagined.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

Duty ... a desire to do "the right thing" no matter how hopeless the cause.

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

Formendacil just mentioned Bilbo and the things that Bilbo and Frodo have in common. The qualities that Bilbo has that makes the difference are pity and mercy. He spares Gollum when he could killed him. So does Frodo. Of course, it is Frodo's act of mercy that means that Gollum can reappear at the climactic moment to enact the providential snatching of the Ring that ensures its destruction.

But ... is this connected with Frodo's desire to claim the Ring? Could it be that at that moment in the Sammath Naur the Ring appealed to Frodo's sense of pity and mercy towards ... Sauron?

Could the Ring have deceived Frodo into thinking that instead of destroying the Ring, and therefore Sauron, he should instead take the Ring for himself and therefore spare Sauron? So at that moment (of madness) it might have seemed to Frodo that becoming the new Dark Lord was the merciful thing to do.

[Gordis]

Fodrim, thanks - I am glad you liked my ideas.

But I never said that Frodo had the hidden desire to become the Dark Lord from the very start. Actually I agree with Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

Frodo had the desire to better the world, he cared for it as most good people do and more than that he was willing to act upon it. -
And it was this very desire that the Ring managed to twist and amplify. It would have done the same with Gandalf or Galadriel far easier, because they were not so humble. In Frodo the Ring had to overcome his hobbit humbleness, persuade him that he was the very person destined to become the Overlord. I don't think we was willing to become an EVIL overlord, even at Mt.Doom, but he saw himself as the Ringlord all the same.

In the letter 246 Tolkien describes what would have happened if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from Frodo and the Nazgul had time to arrive to Mount Doom:

I think [the Nazgul] would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this.

Note Frodo's attitude: he was ready to listen to the Nazgul, to survey his new Kingdom, he was already enmeshed in Napoleonic plans...
Not a thought spared for the Shire, or for the West, or for his friends...

[Boromir88]

but that's what would happen to anyone sooner or later (with the exception of Gollum, for the reasons already stated by Gordis).~Nerwen

I wouldn't call Gollum the exception. It may have been harder, because as Gordis does say, Gollum seemed pretty content to just stay hidden with the Ring in the Misty Mountains. But Gollum just doesn't solely dream about eating lots of fish. He has the same "Gollum the Great" dreams and ruling over the people who he perceived had done him wrong.

The only exception seems to be the enigmatic Bombadil. Why? I don't know, just my own guessing here, the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, because Bombadil was already his own Master. Somehow Bombadil reached a mysterious state where the Ring can't master him, because he is the master of himself...if that makes sense.

It's actually to such a degree that Bombadil would be a horrible Ring-bearer for he would see no importance in the Ring, and toss it away...something that was supposedly beyond the strength of anyone to do.

Edit: hmm...maybe Frodo should have travelled with Bombadil. Frodo could bear the pain and get it to the cracks, Bombadil could take it and toss it in. Could you imagine Bombadil throughout the entire story?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As an aside, that is completely off topic, but if you want to blame someone, blame Gandalf. I'm in the opinion, dealing with conspiratory lore, that Gandalf is Sauron.

Oh, like there's anyone who doesn't know that. The whole quest was of course just an elaborate practical joke on the part of the Dark Lord, who planned to shed his good wizard disguise and grab the Ring just when they least expected it. (Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!) It's all there when you look for it.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wouldn't call Gollum the exception. It may have been harder, because as Gordis does say, Gollum seemed pretty content to just stay hidden with the Ring in the Misty Mountains. But Gollum just doesn't solely dream about eating lots of fish. He has the same "Gollum the Great" dreams and ruling over the people who he perceived had done him wrong.

Well, a partial exception– that was an aside, anyway, dealing with Zil's counter-argument at #13.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Edit: hmm...maybe Frodo should have travelled with Bombadil. Frodo could bear the pain and get it to the cracks, Bombadil could take it and toss it in. Could you imagine Bombadil throughout the entire story?

I'd rather not...