Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I would be disinclined to think that Bombadil was in any way Eru, since it is plainly said that he would fall in the end before the power of Sauron and the Ring, "last as he was first." In letter 181, Tolkien said, "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology." I would say that pretty well eliminates the Bombadil as Eru concept (sorry, alatar).

What would the mere 'author' know about any of this stuff? Never saw *him* post here on the Downs...probably doesn't even have any rep points...

But all of that in Letter 181 is just to throw you off. How much less would there be to discover if a letter had everything spelled out:

• Tom is Eru

• Balrogs are wingless (though tasty with BBQ sauce)

• Folco Boffin was a spy for Saruman

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Bombadil is master.

That's what Tom thinks and says when Goldberry's not in the room. Note that we first find him down by the Withywindle, running errands for her when we guys know that he'd rather be catching up on the local news with Farmer Maggot over a few pints.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry to double-post, but I missed alatar's last before posting mine.

Originally Posted by alatar

That's what Tom thinks and says when Goldberry's not in the room.

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seen him', she said in answer to his look. 'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'

And a little further down the page:

'Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom [...] He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

It's not what she says when there is company around that interests me, it's what she says when no one is there.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

alatar, alatar, alatar...are you being tongue in cheek regarding this topic? Be careful, or I may start quoting The Silmarillion regarding the balrogs flying "with winged speed".

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power. That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

See what I mean?

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power.

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...).

That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And we Downers are particularly enamoured of ingenious theories.

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

Now, I was initially tempted to propose the Dustbroom Motivation. That is, when I read the very first post here, I saw a post desperately in need of a new broom to remove the code from previous forum software. Why, I couldn't even find the post topic amidst all that code! I thought maybe al was nudging our Moddess a bit, to tidy up her fora.

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Now, al finds this evidence of two halves. I find it evidence of . . . The Author In His Work.

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...)..

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

Originally Posted by alatar

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

Originally Posted by alatar

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

So did Alfred Hitchcock (Jackson's a copycat). I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

I understand what you mean, but what I mean is that Eru via Tom was obviously restrained in what he did - he veiled his full power. In the Barrow, he even asked Frodo help him get the others out. He does nothing that one or more inhabitants of Arda couldn't do, if not a whole lot less.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

I think that the prefix you are looking for is "auto."

Maybe he's just demonstrating what real perfect love would be like. If he is Eru, then there's nothing icky about the whole thing.

So did Alfred Hitchcock

Who? I thought that the originals were made by Ralph Bakshi.

(Jackson's a copycat)

Not sure *what* he was copying...

I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

Much agreed.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

You wouldn't know that by reading through The Movies here.

Really, in the end it must be down to conjecture and personal interpretation, or the question would likely have been resolved to the satisfaction of most long ago.
Personally, I don't care much for 'enigmas', even in books. I like to be able to categorize things and make them fit in the world they inhabit. I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

With some of us it is possible that enarmoured might be preferable.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Worst? Here I was thinking it was a valuable form of community service!

Originally Posted by alatar

And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

As we all know, Tom is divine.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke

Humour is the best antidote to horror.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

He's an ent that aint, or rather, a pent-up ent that lent out its cerements then went and spent time in a tent as an unfashionable, dissident gent. That's what he meant.

Venting or lenting, this is a bent rent.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying

The best ones are those that allow us to keep trying.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

The author of his works rather than in his works.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Again Tom Bombadil is Old Man Willow's Ent Spirit one day Old Man Bombadil(for he was an ent was walking around and saw Goldberry now unlike other ents who sometimes slow down and become treeish he fell in love and became super hasty and happy so hasty that in fact the spirit was ripped from the ent body which became bitter and angry and tom went and "put on his 'A' game" for goldberry

that is also why he can control tghe forest he is a treeherder

this is based on the ent creation theory yvanna put spirits into trees

[Morthoron]

*Sighs*

alatar, alatar, alatar...are you being tongue in cheek regarding this topic? Be careful, or I may start quoting The Silmarillion regarding the balrogs flying "with winged speed".

Bombadil is not 'Eru's little joke'; he is, in fact, Tolkien's little joke. He is 'first' because he did indeed come far before the writing of LotR (Tom was that creepy little stuffed doll haunting the Tolkien's nursery). The ring does not affect him because he comes from outside of the story. He is a localized phenomena, a manifestation of something Tolkien felt important (the vanishing English countryside of his youth -- Bombadil is, for all intents and purposes, a version of the English Jack-in-the-Green), and Tolkien asked his publisher Unwin in a letter if he might include Bombadil for that reason, not because Tom had anything at all germane to do with the story.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

• Tom is Eru

So that's why he's always singing. Now you know what the Music of the Ainur really sounded like .

Anyway, I think he is more something that Eru put there to be an antidote to the evil of Middle-Earth, so in a way, he is a manifestation of Eru, as he does what Eru wants, but isn't actually him.

And also, remember the whole thing about trolls being made in mockery of Ents and Orcs being made in mockery of Elves/Men? I would assume that this was already decided in the Music, and that Melkor, hearing of Tom Bombadil (literally), created an opposite, Ungoliant. I'm sure that somewhere I've read that she is the primeval spirit of darkness and so, according to this, Tom would be the primeval spirit of good.

This would actually make sense, as Tom is sort of made to be a perfect being: He is kind and carefree, he is a perfect partner with his wife (and together they make a whole), he is in tune with nature and isn't against it (e.g. he can talk to trees), he is his own master (nothing can take control of his mind, and he is himself all the time), and best of all, he is happy.

And would you put it past Eru to make Goldberry for Tom, as God made Eve for Adam?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Anyway, I think he is more something that Eru put there to be an antidote to the evil of Middle-Earth, so in a way, he is a manifestation of Eru, as he does what Eru wants, but isn't actually him.

And also, remember the whole thing about trolls being made in mockery of Ents and Orcs being made in mockery of Elves/Men? I would assume that this was already decided in the Music, and that Melkor, hearing of Tom Bombadil (literally), created an opposite, Ungoliant. I'm sure that somewhere I've read that she is the primeval spirit of darkness and so, according to this, Tom would be the primeval spirit of good.

Nay, that really doesn't work. Tom does not actually DO much, does he? Tom could be a spirit of the primeval, good (in the sense: unspoiled, undisturbed) Arda, however, he just is not able to cope with the flow of events. Or, let's say, history. He is old and can just live, live and live on and time can pass him by and not affect him - but at the same time, history works and affects everybody around him violently. "He's a moss-gatherer", and Gandalf put it quite well in this comparison of his, the forces who were able to actually act on good's behalf and stand against Sauron or whatever were not Tom, but messengers like Gandalf, "a stone doomed to rolling". Tom portrays the ideal state, something like the Shire as it was isolated from the outside world - even though it could not escape it eventually, as it HAD TO be touched by the history, as it WAS a part of the history too (or "was in it", or how to put it. And now I am not referring to the Ring or anything, I am speaking on very general terms).

I think Bombadil is the extreme example of isolation "outside" the history - almost, or on the very edge (mostly as an observer - as we are shown in the places where he tells something about old Arnor, the barrows or the woman wearing the jewel from that tomb). Only if it really came to that Tom would keep the Ring, and Sauron would have had to confront him, he would came into real "touch" with the history. But not otherwise. See, there was Sauron's rule all over Eriador (except Lindon) in the dark ages, while Tom was apparently still there in his place. Nothing touched him, and he was of no concern to Sauron's rule. No threat, except that maybe he could offer a shelter to a few passers-by - just like with Frodo. But he really didn't have any special "agenda", did he? He just helped Frodo because he managed to stop by, not because he would have some real urge to contribuge to destroying Sauron.

All in all, Tom is really the closest to nature - also in this sense. But he has little to do with the history of humans, elves, hobbits or Dark Lords. In this way, he is not really a representative of any powers of the West or anything - he is just too passive, as in comparison to the Istari's mission, for example. Therefore, even his connection as some manifestation of Eru would be a bit doubtful (though it is true that theologically, Eru is not one of the most active gods himself, or at least he does not seem to be in the process of history - though still, TB is just too much even for him, and Eru has all these delegates like Valar and delegates of delegates like the Istari).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think Bombadil is the extreme example of isolation "outside" the history - almost, or on the very edge (mostly as an observer - as we are shown in the places where he tells something about old Arnor, the barrows or the woman wearing the jewel from that tomb).

The 'outside' word interests me, and leads me to wonder if my 'Maia or Eru' ideas might not be too stratified. Tom actually reminds me a bit of Ungoliant in that context.

For though the Valar did not yet understand fully what had befallen, they perceived that Melkor had called upon some aid that came from beyond Arda.

Silm Of the Flight of the Noldor

So the Valar, the most powerful and knowledgeable beings of Arda, were unaware of Ungoliant and did not know what manner of creature she was. Perhaps Tom was a being of the same sort, differently embodied. It would explain why the Eldar, taught by the Valar, had no clear notion what Tom was.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nay, that really doesn't work. Tom does not actually DO much, does he? Tom could be a spirit of the primeval, good (in the sense: unspoiled, undisturbed) Arda, however, he just is not able to cope with the flow of events. Or, let's say, history. He is old and can just live, live and live on and time can pass him by and not affect him - but at the same time, history works and affects everybody around him violently. "He's a moss-gatherer", and Gandalf put it quite well in this comparison of his, the forces who were able to actually act on good's behalf and stand against Sauron or whatever were not Tom, but messengers like Gandalf, "a stone doomed to rolling". Tom portrays the ideal state, something like the Shire as it was isolated from the outside world - even though it could not escape it eventually, as it HAD TO be touched by the history, as it WAS a part of the history too (or "was in it", or how to put it. And now I am not referring to the Ring or anything, I am speaking on very general terms).

I didn't mean that he was there to help the good guys. I just said that he was good. When I said that he was an antidote to the evil, I didn't mean that he would just go out and defeat the baddies, but that he is just good.

He shows many the opposite characteristics of the bad characters:

• The bad want to control, he doesn't
• The bad want to be involved in everything and everyone's lives
• The bad are never content wit anything they have, he is
• The bad always want to expand, he sticks to his own lands

and so on.

Tom Bombadil is the opposite extreme to all the evil characters, and that is why no-one knows anything about him. He keeps to himself unlike any of the bad characters.

And anyway, if Tom Bombadil actually interfered, then it would go against all of Melkor's designs, and then the Music of the Ainur wouldn't be more magnificent (Remember what Eru says about how Melkor's discord contributes to the Theme?)

He wasn't there to go against the Music the way that Men were allowed to, and so the theme still played out. He was just there, I think, to give comfort to the few that passed his lands. There was only one time (that we know about), where he directly coincided with the fate of the world, and technically, he only helped them through his land and told them stories. He just gave them a much-needed break. It was still up to them to them to carry on the quest and destroy the ring, he just gave them a little bit of safety at the start of the quest. I don't think he was made to play a big part (while Ungoliant, who I regard as his opposite, but of the same nature, plays a huge part, such as in destroying the Trees) in the world, but just to be a safe haven, and in that way, he contributed to the good without influencing the world. Eru left that to his creations: His Children and the Ainur. The Ainur were almost as fallible as elves, only on a much huger scale, for example when Manwe decided to let Melkor go and he wreaked havoc upon Arda.

I think that Tom Bombadil was pure in a way, but in an earthy way, unlike the Ainur who were not pure- look at Melkor. Because he (Tom Bombadil) was pure, he couldn't interfere with the world, otherwise there probably wouldn't even be a story.

Think of what happens with the wights- they are evil and dangerous, and in his land, yet he only gets rid of one, and only when it threatens people. I think this shows him to be a truly good and pure being, as most of the "good" characters would have definitely got rid of the wights if they could, yet Tom lets them stay there and only interferes when someone's life, and in fact the whole fate of Middle-Earth, is at risk he acts, and then only destroys the immediate threat (one of the many wights).

We can look at the ring in the same way. If he has it, then he probably wouldn't keep it safe because of his purity. He is so pure that the ring doesn't affect him like every other being in Middle-Earth. Because he is perfectly content, the ring has nothing to offer him, and so it has no power over him. He would just treat it as a normal ring, because to him, that is what it is. He is not affected by anything, but he also does not affect anything outside his realm, and only gets involved with things inside his realm if he needs to.

So I think (if we disregard the AOTB, which isn't really Middle-Earth canon, to me at least), that the Tom Bombadil we see in Middle-Earth is a wholly good character, and only gets involved when there is a benefit for the greater good (or just for the good side in general), and does not become involved just because he can.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, now I can say I more or less agree with you, Eönwë, on most points - more or less. But maybe just as reply to this, to make it clear:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I didn't mean that he was there to help the good guys. I just said that he was good. When I said that he was an antidote to the evil, I didn't mean that he would just go out and defeat the baddies, but that he is just good.

But that was the point. You used the word "antidote", which is, in this case, not well used at all. Tom was the first pure thing before any antidote had to be used. You use antidote to purify the already poisoned, let's say, body. But Tom was a part of the original unpoisoned Arda, and then poison (Melkor, Sauron) came, and then the antidote (Istari...) had to be used.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But that was the point. You used the word "antidote", which is, in this case, not well used at all. Tom was the first pure thing before any antidote had to be used. You use antidote to purify the already poisoned, let's say, body. But Tom was a part of the original unpoisoned Arda, and then poison (Melkor, Sauron) came, and then the antidote (Istari...) had to be used.

Ah, yes, that is a good point. I was thinking more that it was an antidote for the characters passing through his land.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I don't normally get involved in Bombadil threads, but I think we can rule out a few possibilities just by asking the author. He did say quite a lot about what Bombadil is not:

Letter 144, written in 1954:

"He has not connexion in my mind with the Entwives", "...only the Victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron." He says that if you have no interest in power or control then "the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control" have no meaning to you. "It is a natural pacifist view".

Letter 153, also written in 1954, in response to the claim the Bombadil is God/Eru because Goldberry says "He is":

"...I really do think you are being too serious ... Frodo has asked not 'What is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he' .... Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer... Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names."

In other words you can only explain who Tom Bombadil is by the statement "He is Tom Bombadil". He is the one and only Tom Bombadil. As Tom asks Frodo, "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?"

So, Tolkien implicitly rejects that Tom is Eru and hints that he is really in a class of his own.

As for the suggestion that Tom is Tolkien himself, or the reader, well that really is unhelpful. Besides, Tolkien said the character he mosts identifies with is Faramir - see, for example Letter 180; both the comment that Faramir shares Tolkien's dream of the "Giant Wave" and also his footnote, "As far as any character is 'like me' it is Faramir".

So from the author's own words... Bombadil is not:

- The author.

- God

- An ent or entwife.


Bombadil is:

- One of a kind.

- A 'natural pacifist'. He does not get involved or seem to be concerned about events in the outside world.

- Eldest. He was there before anything else.

So, we also know that he is not mortal, for he seemingly has lived for as long as middle-earth itself. Also, he does not disappear when he wears the Ring ... this is only true for immortals. Therefore he can't be some kind of strange man or hobbit.

In the story his function seems to be to show that the Ring has no effect on someone with no interest in power and control. Thus, even Frodo and Bilbo do have, at least in some measure, some hidden desire for power and control. There has to be something inside you that the Ring can work on.

Insofar as he can be compared to any character, I would say that he is the anti-Melkor. Whereas Melkor from the very beginning wished to impose his own will on things, and this desire (when denied) became an impulse to ruin everything and oppress everyone, Tom has no personal interest whatsoever in controlling anything. Tom, of course, cannot oppose someone like Melkor or Sauron in any meaningful way, because he does not wield power in the way that they do. So when I say he is the anti-Melkor I don't mean that he is 'equal' to Melkor (or the 'antidote' to Melkor) because to be Melkor's true opposite means he cannot oppose evil. Indeed, in general he is oblivious to it. That isn't to say that Tom is powerless ... indeed he is 'Master' of his own little land ... he has profound influence through his 'songs' ... but he has no "personal interest" in power. He does not use power to enhance his standing or boost his ego.

One interesting thing to notice is that Tom does say "his songs are stronger". He does seem to maintain order in his land through his songs. It's hard not to be reminded of the Music of Eru at this moment, as Tom's songs seem to have some kind of deep influence on reality. This doesn't mean that Tom is Eru, just that he knows the Music! I seem to recall reading a theory that Tom actually is a manifestation of the Music brought to life as a conscious being. A spirit of the Music, if you like.