"How does one pronounce Tolkien?"

[Bêthberry]

This thread has reminded me of Lalaith's Cellar Door thread. There are a couple of remarks there that I think are particularly apt here.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.
I rarely hear Welsh spoken, but I do love the accent.

I've always enjoyed Lalaith's comments, however rare.

And here's a quote from Tolkien himself, provided by Piosennial, who always has her finger on a good quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, "English and Welsh"

The basic pleasure in the phonetic elements of a language and in the style of their patterns, and then in a higher dimension, pleasure in the association of these word-forms with meanings, is of fundamental importance. This pleasure is quite distinct from the practical knowledge of a language, and not the same as an analytic understanding of its structure. It is simpler, deeper-rooted, and yet more immediate than the enjoyment of literature. Thought it may be allied to some of the elements in the appreciation of verse, it does not need any poets, other than the nameless artists who composed the language. It can be strongly felt in the simple contemplation of vocabulary, or even in a string of names. ...Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that *cellar door* is 'beautiful,' especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful that, say, *sky*, and far more beautiful than *beautiful*, Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant.

full ref provided by pio: J.R.R. Tolkien "English and Welsh" (lecture, 10/21/55) published in - Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures (1963) and reprinted in: The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays(1983) by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien.

And, thinking of Pitchwife's comment here, there's also another related thread about Pelennor Fields, too, but alas I haven't the time now to find it.

Pleasure in the sound and musicality of language is so rarely discussed these days, or considered. As to the right and wrong of pronunciation, why, it's possible--or was once before universal media--to walk the mews and alleyways of London and hear different pronunciations every two or three blocks. I know a linguist who placed an English exile living here in Canada to within three blocks of his birthplace just listening to his own speech patterns. As I recall, he was not amused!

It's highly unlikely, I would think, that Tolkien as a philologist, would hold to the sole standard of "The Queen's English."

[Formendacil]

Fascinating topic, Davem, I must say...

Perhaps I was lucky as a youth (oh... does that sound pretentious! ) that, having swarmed through LotR and the Appendices, I was on immediately to the Silm, and ended up romping happily through that (though with the usual troubles of distinguishing all those "Fins" from each other), and though I don't recall the story or the prose sinking in much on the first read, the "Guide to Pronunciation" did.

I'll be honest, though... it was still a few read-throughs ere Seleborn had become Celeborn or Sírdan Círdan. It was even longer before sore old Soron had become Sauron, and Minus Tirith (as opposed to Plus Tirith) had become Minas Tirith. And then there were the Dúnedane--Vikings from old Arthedenmark!



Still, by the ripe old age of 14 when the movies came out, I was sufficiently inculcated in the "proper" pronunciation of those words that I was already correcting the pronunciations of other friends who, anticipating the movies, were talking about Seleborn and Soron.

One of the reasons, I think, that I liked Tolkien at that age, and what still holds one of the attractions for me is, precisely, the linguistic aspect. As someone who sings quite a lot of Ecclesiastical Latin on a regular basis, but who spent last year learning Latin with a Classical pronouncer, I'm particularly susceptible, at this point, to the difference that a hard "C" makes versus a soft "C." Although Tolkien may not have condemned those who pronounce the names wrong--a knowing bit of tolerance from the expert there--I like to think that, even if it doesn't matter, I'm getting a better, more authentic, experience by reading the words the way they "actually" sounded in Middle-earth.

[davem]

I wonder how many of us who choose to alter our original (mis)pronunciations do so because we desire to 'get it right', & how many of us do it because we want to conform (ie, because we don't want to embarrass ourselves in front of those 'in the know')? In the light of the Cellar Door thing, I think one could argue that, just as Sellador is more aesthetically pleasing than 'kellador', so Seleborn sounds better than Keleborn (though on purely aesthetic terms 'Teleporno' is possibly more pleasing than either?) If one finds the sound of Keleborn ugly (for whatever idiosyncratic reasons), & Seleborn attractive, shouldn't one go with Seleborn, as Elves, surely, should have names which reflect in the reader's mind their essential beauty?

Of course, one may feel that Soron is a more pleasing sound than Sowron, & surely the Dark Lord's name should evoke distaste - so we have a further complication to add:

1) Is there something specially evocative for you about your original pronunciations, & should you retain them for that reason?

2) Should you strive for authenticity, in order to experience the story as the Author intended?

or

3) Should you tailor your chosen pronunciation of the name to what is evocative of the thing named - ie if you feel Seleborn is more beautiful a sound than Keleborn, shouldn't you go with that, whether or not you read it that way initially? And if you find Sowron an uglier sound that Soron (particularly if you find 'Soron' pleasing), shouldn't you go with Sowron - 'cos bad guys should have nasty sounding names which evoke in your mind an essential aspect of their nature?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In real life, when I am in doubt, I ask a person just how their name is pronounced or spelled. That is a matter of respect for me, perhaps a form of politeness. I would say that carries over to my reading; I do make an effort to correct my pronunciation if I know the right one, even if it doesn't come easy at first. I have to make a conscious effort to say "Keleborn", and I actually like "Seleborn" better, but when it comes to names of others, I feel that my preference is not the decisive factor, so I practice the correct one till it comes naturally (hopefully someday!).

[davem]

From 1968 onwards Allen & Unwin published a single volume paperback of LotR (with Pauline Baynes wonderful cover painting). What's interesting about this edition in the context of this thread is that this it uses the Second Edition text, in the Foreword of which the footnote guide (from the First ed. Foreword as given above) to pronunciation is absent - so as with all the Second Edition LotR's there is nothing to help the reader in pronouncing the names until after they've finished the story & get to the Appendices - so unless you're someone who reads the Appendices first, you will have read the story & come up with your own pronunciations before you get to the correct ones - but this p/b edition is even more interesting (& less useful) in this context, as it omits all the Appendices except the Tale of Aragorn & Arwen from Appendix A - so you could read the whole book & never realise there was a 'correct' way to pronounce the names.

Two things to notice further - one, this edition appeared during Tolkien's lifetime, & two, there is a note appended to the Foreword which states:

"The index & all but one of the numerous appendices have been omitted. Though they contain much information that has proved very interesting to many readers, only a small part is necessary to the reading of the tale"

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

In real life, when I am in doubt, I ask a person just how their name is pronounced or spelled. That is a matter of respect for me, perhaps a form of politeness. I would say that carries over to my reading; I do make an effort to correct my pronunciation if I know the right one, even if it doesn't come easy at first. I have to make a conscious effort to say "Keleborn", and I actually like "Seleborn" better, but when it comes to names of others, I feel that my preference is not the decisive factor, so I practice the correct one till it comes naturally (hopefully someday!).

That's a good point. Heaven knows, I know plenty of people with what one might call "very ethnic" last names who do not pronounce them as they would be pronounced in "the old country," and that has been the case for many generations. (Or as someone once put it, the name may be spelled "Przybylski," but you can pronounce it "Smith" if you want to.) I have also known people who are quite aware of the "correct" pronunciation of their given name, but choose for personal reasons to pronounce it otherwise. Some change the spelling, and I think it may be for the same reason, to "make it their own," rather than something that was foisted on them when they were unable to choose for themselves. I suppose Tolkien created the notion of the self-chosen "nickname" among the Elves for similar reasons. And I also suppose that some Elves might deliberately "mispronounce" their names to make it more unique, something of their own choosing (or possibly to annoy their parents ). Tolkien, of course, would not tell us if they do or don't, but as he did tell us that the Elven languages evolved over time, I would tend to think that they would be subject to change through such personal idiosyncrasies as well.

Oh, and for myself, as an 11 year old, I first read Seleborn, but when I became aware of the Keleborn pronunciation, I had no problem accepting it. Seleborn always made me think of cellophane, or celery, and both seemed totally ridiculous. To my ear, Keleborn as a sound was more pleasing to the ear (and the brain), but the Celeborn spelling more pleasing to the eye.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by davem

2) Should you strive for authenticity, in order to experience the story as the Author intended?

or

3) Should you tailor your chosen pronunciation of the name to what is evocative of the thing named

Well, in my case, I always try to fix the pronounciation and often find that it the the given one fits much better then the one I had formed. So, to me, Keleborn sounds just as good as Seleborn (and Celeborn looks nicer when written down), and Kirith Ungol sounds much harsher than Sirith Ungol (thouh maybe less piercing). However, I find it harder to change the pronounciation of some characters, especially those that I like more (maybe there is some sort of subconscious attachment), such as Cirdan (which I still automatically pronounce Sirdan) and Eönwë (Which I find hard not to pronounce "ee-ON-way").

But I suppose what people find more aesthetically pleasing to the ear varies. As for whether we should go for the author's offical pronounciation or the one that we like more, do you really want to start a whole canonicity thread again?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Eönwë (Which I find hard not to pronounce "ee-ON-way").

You have the perfect right to pronounce your own name anyway you like, of course! As long as you don't pronounce it as 'Hay-on-Wye'...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As long as you don't pronounce it as 'Hay-on-Wye'...

Funnily enough, I just passed through there when I went on holiday. I also past a place called Crickhowell. Don't tell me you read that right the first time .

[Eönwë]

I just had a thought about the whole "C" vs. "K" in terms of letters used for names. "C", though pronounced exactly the same as "K", has the connotation of being softer, at least to me, maybe because it can be changed into an "s" sound in English. "C" seems softer, smoother, and more elegant. "K" on the other hand seems more raw and powerful, and slightly harsher than "C". So it seems to me that Elvish, for example, should use "C" and Dwarvish, for example, should use "K".

I think that Tolkien thought, the same, because looking through wordlists on Ardalambion, you can see that except in primitive Elvish, which seems a much more to me a much more "raw" language, Elvish languages favour the letter "C" over "K". On the other hand, Khuzdul, Adûnaic, and the Orkish all use "K" instead of "C". As well as this, so does Valarin, which sounds like a very raw and powerful language.

The same goes with the "ch/kh" usage. Again, "ch" looks much more soft than "kh", which definately looks harsher, and we see a similar pattern. Tolkien gives "kh" and "ch" the same value, but I always imagine the "ch" to be a bit softer (going towards "gh", but still much more like "kh"), whereas the "kh" is pronounced harder. The sound "gh" is also related, as the other extreme (to "kh"), which is used in Orkish. "Kh" is used in Adûnaic and Khuzdul, and "ch" is used in Elvish. Valarin uses all three.

Just an idea.