Avvies, identity and change

[Nogrod]

How does your avvie represent you? Do you change your self-image - or have you thought how you might change in the eyes of others - when you change the avvie? What do you say?

I have been thinking about this sometimes but now got curious enough to open a thread for it.

What I mean is...

Have you seen Mith having an avvie, ever? Or Anguirel, or...

What does that make you think about them?

Or could you think davem, Lalwënde, Kath, the phantom, littlemanpoet, Rune, Legate, Esty... (to be continued...) to have a different avvie?

What would you think if they changed their avvies?

How about Hookbill, Fea, Lommy, Aganzir, Brinn, Form, Nerwen, me... We seem to change the avvie every once in a while. What does it tell you or make you think?


How do the avvies relate into what you think of the person? Ever been surprised because of a new avvie by someone? Did that new avvie make you rethink what kind of person the holder of it was?

Just think the "case Boro" (sorry Boro but I think you can handle being an example here). There were a couple of mur-murs with Boro lately but they toned down pretty fast, but what was the importance of the factor he took his old avvie? To me - I can admit, even if I wasn't in anyway enraged by the whole thing and just liked and like him as a BD-contributor and friend - it made me feel better anyway, like more secure he was what he had been. There was a relievement of some sorts when he took his old avvie.

But what is that? Why is that?

How much do we look at each other through the avvies?

[Nogrod]

Just to make a point I'll post here some of the avvies I've had for a bit longer during my stay here at the 'Downs.


So here's with what I started actually... playing a host of WW-games.



Someone indeed knew the artist who had made this pic to a band...

Then I think I had this nice pic of Shostakovich for a pretty long time. Firstly because I love his music and secondly because he looks like my grandfather when he was a young man... I might return to this pic one day.



Then I had my Gallén-Kallela period - a Finnish artist in the early 20th century renowned especially from his paintings on Kalevala...

So first I had this that we had a print on our wall when I was a child and had always been quite overwhelmed by it.

[Nogrod]

When the Children of Húrin was published I changed it into this pic of Gallén-Kallela where Kullervo is cursing as a young man...



After that I think I had this Owl of Minerva quite a long time...



Also I stuck with Tom Bombadill for some time with the WW-game and had him on board for quite a while.

[Nogrod]

And lately I had this nice pic made by Brinn for some time (kudos!).



Untill another WW-game forced me to make a change into this:



... for a reason...


But looking back, I'm not sure if I can make a pattern from there.

Sure it tells something about me but what does it tell in the end?


So what do our avvies tell of us - and how should we consider the avvies of others?

[Hakon]

I see the avatars as an extension of the person as you mentioned. When Hookbill and you both changed your avatars it annoyed me. We get so used to seeing the people and avatars around us the same way that when one change comes up it bothers us until we get used to it. In my experience the changes are not always that obvious but online the avatars help to notice. I think it is even clearer with signatures since they are quotes.

Nogrod, you said you are not sure you can make out a pattern. I can see why it would be hard to make out a pattern since you have been on this site for a while. I have only been here for a little over 2 months and looking at the four avatars I have used I can see the change in my personality, sort of. I started off with a painting of a starry night and some mountains. I had a small personality shift and I changed it to a drawing of some woman then I changed it to a drawing of a woman in the rain and then to the one I have now. I changed it cause of my brief personality shift which is also why I changed my signature here. I kept changing it cause I felt none of them fit right until I changed it to the one I have now. That is my, well it sure as hell isn't my two cents.

[narfforc]

I don't have an Avvie, the reason is, that I'm older than old and don't understand the Science of Saruman's Tekromancy, I wouldn't know where to start.



P.S This message took me three hours to write.



.Full Stop......


.

[Hakon]

I think the reason some people don't have an avatar is that they don't want to open up. I am not sure about this but I think that if you were to look at all the people on this site who do not have avatars, that they have told other people the least about their personal lives.

[Nienna]

I think a person's choice in picture can say a lot about them. I know that the pictures are mainly how I think about a person. I am a visual person and tend to see their avatar in my head. They can also tell about a person's personality and what interests them. I have a Klimt painting which says a lot about my aesthetic taste. Other people have pictures from movies they are fond of or funny things they have found.

Basically I think that since an avatar is a conscious choice that appeals to someone enough to make it a part of their online persona then it must say something about someone... even if it is only that they like cats.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I don't have an Avvie, the reason is, that I'm older than old and don't understand the Science of Saruman's Tekromancy, I wouldn't know where to start.

There is help out there, ya know. Heck, even I was able to create an animated one (though I can't use it).

Do you need someone to chew your food?

[wilwarin538]

Interesting....I myself always stick to a theme, usually butterfly related, and blue, haha. I think that always seemed to reflect me, if anyone was to see a blue girl or a blue butterfly avatar they would connect that to me. I think there are lots of people who are similar in that sense, sticking to a certain theme and such.

I usually end up picturing people as their avatars, mainly when it's a person in it. Even though some people change theirs often (like Nogrod) I just kind of mix all of their previous ones in my head along with their current one. And the avatarless just stay a big question mark in my head, haha. Makes them very mysterious to me...

Some past ones of mine. The first one being my very first, and probably the one I kept the longest, the other being my previous one. I rather like my current one, I think it will stay a while.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I can remember only a few avatars I've had besides iSnape (which was chosen purely because it made me laugh): a photoshopped version of a charcoal sketch of a rose, a portrait of the Watchmen character Rorschach... Actually, that's all I can remember having. I'm sure I've had more, but none come easily to mind.

I have difficulty switching from avatar to avatar because I don't recognize 'myself' without the right combinations of text and image. Right now my Barrowdowns persona is a green square. If I changed it to red, it would throw me off.

I know there is one thing I bear in mind with all avatars: I like the backgrounds to blend seamlessly with the background of the forum, so I choose dark images, or manipulate them to become dark. I seem to remember once I may have had a galaxy, and I think for a time I had a fractal.

I've been thinking lately it's time for a change, but nothing has stood out for me. On a forum where people tend to retain your picture more quickly than your name (how many werewolf games have had people saying, "Wow, for a second I thought X said it, because Y has a very similar avvie"?), it's a conscious decision of how I care to be perceived.

I'm always fascinated by the images people choose to represent themselves. We (many of us, at least) live in a hyper-visual culture. The imagery we create tells a story about perhaps our passions, at the very least our aesthetic tendencies.

Nog: you are, in my head, an owl.

Wilwa is a blue butterfly.

The phantom is what he's always been, and The Barrow-Wight is a little green ghost.

Heren is fireworks, Kath is The X-Files. Greenie is green.

Some people can switch avatars all they want and I'll never notice. Other people I have come to identify by their pictures.

I wonder if that says more about my psychology or theirs.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Do you need someone to chew your food?

That's Ageism, and I'm only young for an Half-orc.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think the reason some people don't have an avatar is that they don't want to open up. I am not sure about this but I think that if you were to look at all the people on this site who do not have avatars, that they have told other people the least about their personal lives.

No!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think the reason some people don't have an avatar is that they don't want to open up. I am not sure about this but I think that if you were to look at all the people on this site who do not have avatars, that they have told other people the least about their personal lives.

And then there are the proud iconoclasts. I think the Downs tends to have a rather high proportion of them.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And then there are the proud iconoclasts. I think the Downs tends to have a rather high proportion of them.

Yes, I am so iconoclastic that I have an avatar simply because not having an avatar is so passe among us image breakers.

[Pitchwife]

Hmmm... interesting. Being comparably new here, I haven't had that much time to observe changes in avatars (though I've noticed some, of course), and I haven't yet felt the need to change my own (though I've pondered some alternatives). I think for me the avatar is part of the clothes we wear in this place, just like the names we choose, locations and signatures - different ways to express different aspects, facets of ourselves. And just like we may change our clothing styles or haircuts in real life over time, or dress differently for different occasions, it's perfectly ok to change your avvie if you feel like it (or go naked).
Generally, I identify people with their names rather than pictures - that, and what I've read of them. Some make more marked impressions than others, of course. Those with whom I've interacted more (whether in discussions or games), or who have a sort of charismatic presence, I've come to associate with their individual writing styles, humour, way of thinking etc much more than with their avvies. (Eg davem will always be unmistakably davem, whatever the little pic under his name; same for Form, Legate, yourself Nog, Boro, Might, to name just a few.)
That said, there are numerous exceptions to the rule.
I think it's different with people who have actual faces as their avatars - I associate those with their avvies much more than others. I think of Rune whenever I see a picture of Karl Marx (probably a symptom of Downs addiction) and vice versa. I know alatar doesn't really look like whoever his avvie is (I feel I should know the guy, but the name escapes me), I've seen his real pic on the photo page, and he sure has an unmistakable style, but that's the face he's stuck with in my mind. Form, to me, is Julius Caesar, whatever I've said above. Lalwende is Bilbo (it took me a while to adjust to her being female, despite her name!). Esty is Princess Fiona. Lommy is the Mucha (?) girl - and I was relieved when she changed back to it after her WW game. (She's also a penguin, and I think of her whenever I see penguins, but that's more a background idea.) etc pp.
(Now that makes me ponder - how do I actually feel about people thinking of me as a sheltie dog? Not too bad, but hmm... maybe it's time for a change after all?)
Side topic to this - how much is our psychological response to people conditioned by their avvies? Maybe one of the reasons I found it so hard to accept McCaber as the Seer in Mnemi's WW game was that his avvie doesn't exactly seem to invite trust and confidence; and Lalaith, that cute little rodent, as the last wolf was a small shock.
Which goes to show that it's much too easy to form a fixed image of somebody based on a tiny square of pixels. All the more reason to change every now and then, or go without one like narfforc and others, if you prefer that.
(By the way, Nog's parade of past avvies made me think - wouldn't it be nice to have a graveyard thread for discarded avatars, like the one that already exists for signatures? Or would that need too much server storage capacity?)

EDIT - PS: Now look what you've done! (And thanks to Mnemi for inspiring this)

[McCaber]

I mostly use avatars as an easy way of associating people with posts. I try not to let their choice of picture sway my view of the person, unless they obviously advocate something I enjoy or extremely dislike. Then I use them as a hint to try to know the person behind the picture.

But that's just me.

(Pitchwife, how can you not like the Witch Hunter? He's like teh coolest guy EV4R! What with the hat and the coat and the ...

Sorry, got carried away there for a second. )

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by McCaber

I mostly use avatars as an easy way of associating people with posts. I try not to let their choice of picture sway my view of the person, unless they obviously advocate something I enjoy or extremely dislike. Then I use them as a hint to try to know the person behind the picture.

For me, the avvies come in handy at WW, especially when you're looking for damning statements with which to frame innocents.

[Eönwë]

Can I just say that I was quite taken aback when I was reading this thread and saw that both Fea's and Pitchwife's avatars had changed. It's always a little surprising when someone's avatar changes, especially one that the person has had for a long time.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry McCaber, I'm afraid I have to admit I have no idea who your Witch Hunter is (showing an appalling lack of education on my part, I know). I just meant he's dark and reddish (danger!) and doesn't exactly look like the kind of person I'd sit down to have a pint of ale with if I found him sitting by himself in a dark nook of the Prancing Pony. Should have remembered that all that is gold does not glitter...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, I am so iconoclastic that I have an avatar simply because not having an avatar is so passe among us image breakers.

Thank you for the definition. I knew that someone would get it.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

For me, the avvies come in handy at WW, especially when you're looking for damning statements with which to frame innocents.

Interesting how often the use of avatars and WW is mentioned here. Clearly, WW has come to be a sub-section of the Downs, more than any other forum; possibly it could even be called an off shoot, with the games I think drawing in new members even more than Tolkien. So it doesn't come as a surprise that the avatars became part of the games, and symbolised the special theme of each game or repeated tendencies, etc.

Spoken as a Non-WWian, of course, so this is just an outsider's perspective.

[Lindale]

I've wanted to change my avatar since Erendis came up with hers which is also black and white. I'm too lazy though to change mine, or just color it, because I like it very much. (It's even my handy phone's wallpaper.)

I tend to pick beautiful female heads for all my avatars in all my forums, by the way. Or if not, then flowers, usually stargazers or red roses, though I haven't done that here. What does that say of me, yes we wondersss?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Have you seen Mith having an avvie, ever? Or Anguirel, or...

What does that make you think about them?

I have had avatars intermittantly since I managed to get the facility to work. If the presence or absence of one has caused anyone to speculate then I would prefer they kept their thoughts to themselves. And suggest they have far too much time on their hands.

[Durelin]

I believe I went back to my 'original' (as far as I can remember) Warcract Dark Elf avatar (which when I first used I had no idea where it was from) when I decided I wanted to become more active again on the 'Downs after an absence, and mostly just in the RP section, the section I enjoy the most and have always participated in the most consistently (shows something about my consistency, or rather lack).

It was a back to my roots thing. Yeah.

Other than that my avatar changes are about sharing my interests, fitting with a theme (such as fitting with an RPG I'm participating in), or putting up a cool image people can associate with me...mostly the last reason.

For all those who have too much time on their hands, ponder the suggestion that those who don't feel the need to use avatars, especially those who have resisted the urge to use them for a long time, are extremely comfortable with themselves and feel no need to make themselves stand out with a cool avatar.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I have changed my avatar, but not often I can only remember two of them, when I first joined, I had a picture of Samwise with his and Frodo's swords in his hands. It was because of my user name, it fits, i guess, because Sam very well might be my favourite character in Tolkien's writings.
I now have one of a tea pot building (which, incidentally, is my default one on LJ) the only reason is because I like tea.
Now, Laurinque for a while really wanted me to change back to my Sam avvie because it reminds her of TGEW, despite the fact that she knows me in RL and sees me just about every other day.

As far as other avvies go, Hookbill's has changed quite a lot since I first joined. But the one that I liked best was the one that said "News, it's good.", I still think of that when I read his posts.

Eönwë, on the other hand, I couldn't imagine him without his avvie. Lalwende falls into the same category. If she changed her avvvie, I think that the BD would explode or smething.

Nogrod, to me is still Tom Bombadil, simply because I really liked that avatar.

For me, if I am friends with a Downer on Facebook, I rely less on their avatar to make an image. I will now associate them with photos that they have posted of themselves. Though, I still think of their avatar when I see them.

[Morsul the Dark]

ok so I used to infamous for nearly daily avvie changes....

lets see:
http://www.frbatlanta.org/publica/hi...es_black_m.gif
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/qui...4281118_50.jpg
the wonka one
cookies...
there was a wizard...
a different wizard...

umm...

a bunch more

[Valesse]

I have only used three avatars on the Barrowdowns- the first two were of a yellow tabby in a red bathing cap and suit (the only change on which was that of the scrolling text). It was a crazy picture, and because I linger like a fog in the mirth quarter, it fit rather well. I did have concerns that other users who more fully utilized the forums thought that I had only enough recall to the books, or exposure from the movies to slap names on Crazy Captions or scenarios in Be Careful What You Wish For. A silly fear indeed! But it occurred to me none-the-less.

My current one is a quickly aging piece of pop-culture (Ron "following the butterflies" from Potter Puppet Pals) and was put in place a few years ago just before the overhaul of the avatar system to disallow the use of animated .gifs. As childish as it seems to me, I don't want to give it up simply because it moves and to not have that would mean to give up a kind of bizarre and pointless privilege. Heren and I are part of an elite crowd, you realize.

Now that it has been mentioned, It seems as if those without avatars seem to be literally names without faces. I think I might actually even have a harder time remembering what that individual user has posted (in a WW game, for instance) as compared to one with an avatar... similar to the difference in having to recall something from radio or from a person in the room. For me the second option is always easier, but perhaps I'm simply require a tad more visual stimulation than the rest.

Of all of the avatar changes which shocked me the most was Hookbill's latest one for some reason. I like the new one a lot, but it's very different to what I'm used to! It hasn't made me feel any differently about the Down's favorite Newspaper Editor, though. He's an odd duck, but by gum he's our odd duck.

[Nogrod]

Even if this might be self-evident, I'd like to make this comment.

It seems that when you know a person any better the avvies mainly enrich your view of them ("Ha, s/he took that kind of avvie, interesting...") but when you're in contact with someone whom you don't actually know so well the avvie (and the screen-name) I think is quite an important thing forming an idea of someone.

Let's make a recent example. Pitchwife came into the 'Downs and entered a WW-game with an avvie of a Lassie... Looking at the combination it was not so unpredictable almost everyone took him as a female...

Or what has been discussed on McCaber's avvie here...


But anyway, what I was thinking about putting this thread up was indeed the fact that when you don't know the other person in RL you're discussing with in a forum - or who's posts you read - you form an idea of that person anyway. And as some have said being especially visual people forming their ideas heavily on visual things, I think we all are visual creatures. So it's not only what the others write but also how they present themselves visually (by means of an avvie) that plays a part in our view of others.

If someone uses only "funny avatars" you make certain judgements about that person (surely related to what that person talks), or if someone only uses "artistic" avvies you come up with probably different thoughts... whatever. (Think of the difference of two fictive 'Downers: the other uses only Orlando Bloom avvies and the other uses as avvies only rare pics of some medieval manuscripts...) It is a sum total of many things, but I do think the avvies have a role to play here, which role is not so small one might think.

If you asked me, I would answer that I have never myself thought of my avvie from the perspective of "imago-management"... I've just used ones I've felt are nice or great - or fitting to certain occasion (like this last one jubilating the landing on the Moon 40 years ago).

But sure, being honest, it is also a pic I want to give to others of me and who I am... It's pretty hard to deny that either - whether it is "I love this kind of art" or "my sense of humour appreciates this", "this Tolkien character I find interesting" or whatever. And from this POV also not using an avvie is a statement of one sort... as has been clearly seen from the discussion.


As Eönwë said: interesting to see two people changing their avvies with this discussion!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As Eönwë said: interesting to see two people changing their avvies with this discussion!

I'd meant to for a while. I got a kick out of iSnape, but it seemed somehow odd that a brief moment of laughter was identifying me for so long. Almost as if the laughter was turning to hysterics: it was only ever supposed to last a day or so, and I got lazy.

Your mention of how avvies are perceived just gave me the kick I needed to think about what image I actually wanted to play with. I was actually in search of radiolaria, but a supernova worked out beautifully. I think we learn as much about ourselves as we do about others by looking at itty bitty pictures people (including ourselves) choose.

[Morthoron]

I have used two avatars in my entire existence on the net, the one I'm currently (and only temporarily) using, and the one I will eventually return to, which I've attached.

I'm not much for change, obviously.

P.S. Hopefully the link is fixed, Nog.

[Nogrod]

Heh... I was thinking of coming back to one of my older avvies after the space-thing when I got this idea.

It's the cover of the first Finnish translation of Silmarillion... Morgoth sitting there if it's too small to see.

Wishing to see a larger pic, go here. Even if it's not the Morgoth I think he is it's quite fine. And something I saw in our bookshelf from a kid onwards and a pic that haunted me then.


Btw. Morthoron your link gives one this result:

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

So something wrong there...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by narfforc

That's Ageism, and I'm only young for an Half-orc.

You're not that old. If you'd like, me or another could help you upload an avatar; it'd be as simple as downloading a file (you'd have to right-click - something even Half-orcs can do), and then uploading it again via the 'Edit Avatar' tab. Why, you could even make it a contest, giving people a general idea about what you want, and then pick the avatar that you like.

If you're so inclined, that is...

And note that I can't change my avatar as I use it as a bookmark within threads to see where I last left off. If I changed it, I wouldn't be able to find me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by alatar

And note that I can't change my avatar as I use it as a bookmark within threads to see where I last left off. If I changed it, I wouldn't be able to find me.

But of all possibilities it is Billy Idol?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But of all possibilities it is Billy Idol?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. And yes, Billy Idol, stylized in blue, is my avatar. Says a lot about me, if you know how to read it.

[Mnemosyne]

As someone who spent a lot of time lurking I can say that I choose my avatar, sig, location, etc., with the fact that to some people this is my whole identity in mind.

My "default" avvie is homebrewed; a picture I took of Pauline Baynes' illustration of "The Last Ship," focusing on Firiel as she looks out. The somewhat blurriness of the lines attests to my less-than-competent photography skills. I wanted it for two reasons: 1). it reinforces my femininity (since not everyone will recognize my that my screenname is female), and 2). I really like the character, and the theme of loss, and even the slight questions that the story raises, which goes into my secondary identity as a fanfic writer. Also, it looks simply gorgeous on the Downs' skin.

The default sig is not only one of my most favorite quotes from LotR; it also has a deep personal meaning which does not detract from its general philosophical brilliance. I load a couple of links in there, too: to my livejournal and to my main fanfic opus, in a vain attempt to expose some of my work to the well-read Downers, who I still think would find it interesting if they read it [/shameless self-plug].

My default location just sounded randomly deep and cool; it's mostly intended to sound deep and cool although one could read into it a comment that setting refers not only to place but also to time. For a little while this summer it changed to "The Shire," which is wholly an inside joke.

The current one I have up is for the WW game that I recently ran; it's a pic that I found almost entirely by accident and is meant to represent my art deco Measse as she first appears to the village. The location and sig that match came from Bradbury's short story "Usher II" in which a man gets back on the people who burned his library by having robots simulate a fantastic setting right out of Poe, up to the gruesome deaths he gives them. I'll change them back to the default in a few weeks; I don't have the avatar file on this computer so it'll have to wait, plus I'm still not entirely done with the game itself.

Aside from that I don't have any plan on changing things around in the near future; I like the stability of a static avatar (I wholly approve of the way wilwarin changes hers, keeping a theme so it's still easy to see who she is). Depending on how the MEFAs run I may explode into a few weeks' short-lived arrogance, but we'll just wait and see on that.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by alatar

Says a lot about me, if you know how to read it.

"Rebell Yell"? "White Wedding"?, "Dancing With Myself"? "Flesh For Fantasy"? "Cradle of Love"? "Eyes Without a Face"? ... His lifestyle, his education, his image as a sex-object / idol, motorcycles, punk, heavy-rock, disco,...? Now what to pic from there?

But yes, you indeed raise one more subject I think we haven't discussed a lot here - even if I think I pointed at this thing in my first post.

So how will others read what we use as our avvies? Is there any reason for you to believe that what you think your avvie tries to say or what you think of it conveys will be interpreted that same way by others as well?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

"Rebell Yell"? "White Wedding"?, "Dancing With Myself"? "Flesh For Fantasy"? "Cradle of Love"? "Eyes Without a Face"? ... His lifestyle, his education, his image as a sex-object / idol, motorcycles, punk, heavy-rock, disco,...? Now what to pic from there?

He and I have *so* much in common, I thought the choice only obvious...

So how will others read what we use as our avvies? Is there any reason for you to believe that what you think your avvie tries to say or what you think of it conveys will be interpreted that same way by others as well?

Take it from me, no one *ever* misinterprets anything that you as the writer intends. It's as if what's in your mind, when you pick a sig, upload an avvie or craft a post, gets right into the reader's mind without any degeneration, transmutation or propagation.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by alatar

Take it from me, no one *ever* misinterprets anything that you as the writer intends. It's as if what's in your mind, when you pick a sig, upload an avvie or craft a post, gets right into the reader's mind without any degeneration, transmutation or propagation.

Exactly!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pitchwife came into the 'Downs and entered a WW-game with an avvie of a Lassie... Looking at the combination it was not so unpredictable almost everyone took him as a female...

Just for the record, the lassie in question (may he rest in peace) was a laddie named Seamus (and nothing to do with the TV dog). Not that you could have known.
Funny you mention this - it didn't occur to me that the sheltie avatar would add to the gender confusion caused by my screen name, as I knew the dog was male and didn't think of the TV lassie (who in RL was a laddie as well, by the way) at all when I chose him to represent me. I didn't consider it when I changed my avvie, either, but hopefully the new one, Number 6 (who, as we all know, is not a number but a free man!) will reduce some of the confusion as a side effect. The nice thing about the new one is that I have a cherished T-shirt with that picture and my current sig on it, so I'm now wearing my RL clothes on the Downs!

[Bêthberry]

*raises an eyebrow* "Canonicity and the Avatar" rears its head.