Two Dark Lords?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What would be the requirements for a 'successful' claim?

A good question, and one leading me to suggest a conceptual differentiation here.

Now it is clear Frodo could not just claim "the Ring is mine" and govern all the creatures in the ME just by that. Neither could Gollum, or Bilbo.

They would have to make the effect somehow leading armies and destroying Sauron or something they probably couldn't do.

So there is a question of being able to wield the Ring successfully. Galadriel sure betrays it that she had thought of it and so thinking that she could wield it - and Gandalf for sure sees himself able to wield that thing. And in the end also Boromir seems to think he could do it...

So wielding the Ring would require some things not everyone has. Gandalf as a Maia like Sauron could comfortably think he could use it. It is interesting Tolkien let's us think Galadriel thought she could do that as well. With Boromir we might go both ways, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't.

But then there is the other question as to what would become of the one using the Ring? It seems clear both Gandalf and Galadriel deny the offers they've made fearing it would turn them into tyrants, other dark lords... Boromir sure had no problem wishing to try it...

But if even Gandalf couldn't resist the spell in the Ring if he used it for dominance... then it seems clear the Ring is just the evil thing it is: the evil powermaker for anyone strong enough to claim it's service.

So Gandalf would have defeated Sauron with the Ring... Galadriel, Boromir? Maybe. But the results would have been just adding a new tyrant to the throne.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Had Gandalf claimed the Ring while in Hobbiton, no confrontation would have been necessary or possible (assuming Gandalf's success). Success in establishing ownership of the Ring would depend on the bearer's innate power being great enough.

'Success' in what respect? Again: how does one establish true ownership of the Ring without overthrowing its original master? Surely Sauron would have the opportunity to fight his rival to establish dominance. I simply don't see anything to convince me that someone, even of the stature of Gandalf , merely declaring the Ring to be his would cause Sauron to roll over and die.
And really, by claiming the Ring, haven't you actually been conquered by Sauron already, in a sense?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So there is a question of being able to wield the Ring successfully. Galadriel sure betrays it that she had thought of it and so thinking that she could wield it - and Gandalf for sure sees himself able to wield that thing. And in the end also Boromir seems to think he could do it...

I think Boromir was the victim of deluisons of granduer. Isildur himself, at least, had wisdom in the end.

I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.

UT Disaster of the Gladden Fields

I believe Isildur was greater in all ways than Boromir: as a captain, a warrior, and in strength of will.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But if even Gandalf couldn't resist the spell in the Ring if he used it for dominance... then it seems clear the Ring is just the evil thing it is: the evil powermaker for anyone strong enough to claim it's service.

That's it. It isn't only mindless, directionless power that the Ring contains. It is also filled with Sauron's evil will, and ultimately would have corrupted anyone who tried to keep it for any purpose, even merely to keep it safe.
Having written that, the only possible exception might be Everyone's Favourite Enigma, Tom Bombadil. But Tom, as we know, is a special case.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

'Success' in what respect? Again: how does one establish true ownership of the Ring without overthrowing its original master? Surely Sauron would have the opportunity to fight his rival to establish dominance. I simply don't see anything to convince me that someone, even of the stature of Gandalf , merely declaring the Ring to be his would cause Sauron to roll over and die.
And really, by claiming the Ring, haven't you actually been conquered by Sauron already, in a sense?

This is an invisible struggle that is exactly like the Ring's exertion of its will over its bearer, but in reverse. Gandalf or Galadriel would have perceived much more of Sauron than even Frodo did when wearing the Ring, and the will of the Ring/Sauron would be plain to them, either to be submitted to or overcome. A successful claimant would overcome the Ring's will and enslave its power to his own. This invisible struggle never took place with Frodo, Isildur, Bilbo, and Gollum, as all of these were easily and perhaps imperceptibly bent to its will.

These spiritual duels are not uncommon: Aragorn v. Sauron via Palantir; Gandalf's words of binding and command to the Balrog; Gandalf's overthrowing of Saruman; Melian's Girdle. To resist and assert oneself in the face of, say, Melian's Girdle, would be to prove one's power greater than hers--or, at least, greater than that which she put into the spell. Similarly, the Ring has a will that exerts power and to claim it one must overcome that power. (Melian, of course, would not be overthrown by someone who breached her protective spell, but the nature of Melian's Girdle is different from that of the Ring in that the Girdle was not a repository for a great portion of Melian's sustenance.)

[Boromir88]

I think Boromir was the victim of deluisons of granduer. Isildur himself, at least, had wisdom in the end.~Inziladun

But this wasn't something just seen in Boromir, the delusions of grand power was the trademark of the Ring. That was how it deceived:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246

All the Bearers were tempted with the idea of using the Ring to overthrow Sauron (so where do they get off scolding Boromir! ) The difference is of course, they rejected this path, Boromir never did and I doubt he ever wanted to.

With someone like Boromir's character, this makes him more susceptible to the Ring, than say Hobbits, or even of other men. In a way you could say his personality pre-disposed him to the Ring's temptation. However, the Ring plays the same old trick with everyone, tempt them with delusions of supreme power. It may have been less noticeable in other characters like Sam and Gollum, but the same deceipts were there. Gollum even has visions of using the Ring to exact revenge on everyone of the nasty people who did him wrong and he could be the great lord, feasting on all the fish he wants. Sam has his vision of leading an army against Sauron and restoring the Gorgorth into a garden.

This is the trick of the Ring, Boromir may have been more susceptible, but his visions of granduer are not unique.

Bombadil seems to be an exception, but as noted he's a completely different character. This is simply my opinion, there's no way to 'prove' it, but for what it's worth. Bombadil says he is his own master, and Gandalf suggests in the Council that Bombadil would most likely lose the Ring for he would not care. Bombadil has a laissez faire attitude to all of Middle-earth, the only thing he cares about is what he is in control over. Simply put, the Ring has nothing to work with, Bombadil is his own master and doesn't care about Sauron or what he does. He is present in Middle-earth, but at the same time not completely in it (he's just not all there ).

All the other characters in the story have something at risk, and Sauron threatens to take it, so the Ring uses its tricks to offer them the power to defeat the Dark Lord they want to see destroyed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

ll the Bearers were tempted with the idea of using the Ring to overthrow Sauron (so where do they get off scolding Boromir! ) The difference is of course, they rejected this path, Boromir never did and I doubt he ever wanted to.

This is the trick of the Ring, Boromir may have been more susceptible, but his visions of granduer are not unique.

I wasn't chiding Boromir for being tempted by the Ring and giving in to the urge. That was more a response to Nogrod, who was wondering if B would have been strong enough to wield it. My point was that if Isildur, as great as he was, did not think himself capable of bending the Ring to his will, I certainly couldn't see Boromir being able to do it.

[Keyan]

Originally Posted by obloquy

This is an invisible struggle that is exactly like the Ring's exertion of its will over its bearer, but in reverse. Gandalf or Galadriel would have perceived much more of Sauron than even Frodo did when wearing the Ring, and the will of the Ring/Sauron would be plain to them, either to be submitted to or overcome. A successful claimant would overcome the Ring's will and enslave its power to his own. This invisible struggle never took place with Frodo, Isildur, Bilbo, and Gollum, as all of these were easily and perhaps imperceptibly bent to its will.

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Keyan

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

If the Ring were claimed, and Sauron unsuccessfully faced the claimant in a one-on-one contest, the result for him would have been the same as its destruction. Letter 246 suggests that probably only Gandalf would have had the strength to keep it from him, however.
A lesser claimant such as Elrond or Galadriel would likely do as you say, using the Ring's powers of command and domination to amass an army great enough to defeat Sauron militarily.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Keyan

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

This makes sense, since as others have discussed above, simply claiming the Ring is not sufficient. Both Frodo and Gollum did that and it was obviously not enough.

The key would be control the Ring itself through sheer force of will and then to use the power conveyed by it to assemble an army. In contrast to statements above, I think that Aragorn in fact might have done this--this is stated by Legolas:

In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strenth of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him.

I don't think that Sauron's merely losing the Ring to somebody else would have changed the equation by itself. That person would have to wrest control of the Ring and then put it to use. Of course, in putting it to use, that person would become corrupted him or herself.

[obloquy]

Inziladun is correct. A successful seizure of ownership would result in Sauron's utter overthrow, as if the Ring had been destroyed. Confrontation is only necessary if the claimant is not powerful enough to sever Sauron's bond with--and thus control over--the Ring.

[Student of War]

Controlling the one ring is just a delusion. It is a one way relationship. The only way to maintain control of it is to keep it without using it. And anyone "bonded" to the ring will be able to do its will in the meantime because they cannot be severed from it even if they are completely destroyed. Those with great substance will take longer but each time the ring is used it comes a little closer to dominating its bearer. So once they become wraiths they also become Sauron. It matters little in the end who wields it and how.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the results would have been just adding a new tyrant to the throne.

In the same way that Gandalf says in the Two Towers to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli:

Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been

And I think it would be the same but the opposite in the case of Sauron. Whoever mastered the ring would just fill in the place of "Dark Lord", no matter who they were (other than Tom Bombadil).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I believe Isildur was greater in all ways than Boromir: as a captain, a warrior, and in strength of will.

I would say that Boromir and Faramir are sort of like the two halves of Isildur in a way.