WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Thinlómien]

Boro, why Nogrod? He wasn't lynched, so he wasn't argued for and against, and he was only around for Day1 and beginning of the Day2. So not much data. I think it'd be more informative to re-lynch Sally. But I still don't think we can afford lynching a ghost (not as long as Mac lives ).

Originally Posted by Boro

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault.

Thanks, Mr Psychologist, but I'm always personally annoyed if I'm pretty sure I'm right and the village loses because they don't listen to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide? And Eönwë, I think a dead mutineer wouldn't be allowed to communicate with the pack (and dead gifted aren't allowed to work either).

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt.


edit: x'ed with Boro

[Boromir88]

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt~Lommy

*headdesks*

No I want a double-killing to find out someone's role! This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

But, I will be honest with you...I only want to find out Nogrod, to pad my own confidence you might say. It's really selfish, because I haven't considered what info we'd get, whether he is innocent or not, I just want to know if I've pegged him correctly.

I said I'm open ears, and that means ghosting someone...but I want to try and see where we stand, get some sort of information, just try to find out something for certain for pete's sake.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right? ~Lommy

Sure, but bear in mind you would only be allowed to use that once when you're evil...after that you'll have to get something better.

[Thinlómien]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest, and I understand your feelings well (but I still think Sally was more probably a mutineer). But I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead. (Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

[Boromir88]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest~Lommy

Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...before sally tries something sneaky, I should say I'm not saying I'm the seer now, because I'm not, but in the past being suspicious and confrontational has kept me from being wolf-meat.

I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead.

I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract.

[Boromir88]

Let me go crunch the number i.e. try to see with this many alive, how many days we have left...as much as I would want that information, at this point it might not be the best thing for a double-kill, and give up a day for info that may not be any use at all. My pride might have to endure the agony of not knowing about Nogrod until this is done, and depending upon how many days are left, we may just have travel these waters in the dark going off gut-reactions.

[Boromir88]

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.~Mac

Put it however you want...feeling, gut, generic...that's all we got. So why would those suspicions make you suspicious of Lommy?

There hasn't been one good reason to lynch someone, it's all been generic, because that's all we got, vague generic suspicions. And not to be rude, but you all will have to realize that's the set up, this isn't a normal situation. We can't build clear, articulate, concise suspicions, because there's nothing but how we react to what others say.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract.

I know, but it's not much yet if it's you and me and a dead Rikae. *sigh*

edit: xed with Mac (hey this will be interesting) and Boro

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

(Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

Now I understand what's behind it all...

[Thinlómien]

Hooray I finally managed to get Mac on the defensive! *evil grin*

Okay, first he tries to discredit my case all in all. Later he claims I had "nothing" in my accusation. Has he been reading this thread with a bag on his head. Please, Mac, go back and see I really had reasons, as much reasons as anyone can have and has had in this game.

Originally Posted by Mac

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?

Yous start sounding like Aganzir... Of course you weren't agreeing about every single thing but close enough that it disturbed me. And you can't really say your new points were of the most remarkable sort. You admitted that yourself later (you said you haven't had much points against anyone).

Originally Posted by Mac

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.

Yes and that's exactly what a wolf not under too much suspicion would do. Don't you dare to tell me that's not true. It does not prove your guilt but it is certainly not a point in favour of your innocence.

Originally Posted by Mac

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?

Well yes you continued "and with Boro afterwards" but that was not the point. The point was that if you have to go back to Day1 to find where you really disagreed with people (or, to phrase better, if that's the one you mention first) you have to admit you've been agreeing a lot.

Originally Posted by Mac

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!

But I can use it because I was the first (or the second) to say that. I'm sorry I cannot really analyse why I think so, but in this game you have to go a lot by gut-feeling and that's my gut-feeling. I can give you a general explanation and that is that there was something too purposeful in the attacks to be the sort of innocent testing attacks.

Originally Posted by Mac

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please!

With pleasure. Seriously though, I don't think Rikae's accusation was a joke even though it was phrased "light-heartedly". We can have her clear up this mess but to me it seems like she accused you of a real thing in a joking tone and you ignored the serious side and took it as a joke and that's what I think a baddie would have done - avoid the nasty question and later say "oh it was just a joke".

Originally Posted by Mac

Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

Good, good, now you're slowly turning your boat so that you can get me lynched with your swarming allies so that you don't have to incriminate yourself by killing me at Night. That's smart.

And I'm not really mad at you, I'm sorry if I sound like that, I just really think you're evil and I'm determined to get you lynched rather sooner than later. When you're dead we can be friends again.


edit: xed with everyone

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

Now I understand what's behind it all...

Hey, that does not explain my suspicion of you, it only explains the physical agony I feel about this all.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent.

Originally Posted by Mac

What about incomplete quotes and populist tone?

Populist tone?!! *would crack up if wasn't feeling like jumping up and down*

Originally Posted by Izzy

You have too many or's there Lommy. It pretty much makes that entire list pretty null and void.

I can't. Ignore all the options, then, if it's better.

I should go to sleep now but then I'm pretty sure then Mac won't get lynched. (And I bet there's even smaller chances of getting him lynched toMorrow.) Then you all just owe me a big rep once the game is over. And I will really eat my head gladly if I've been wrong about him, I know I can get it totally wrong in ww but for now both my reason and my gut-feeling tell Mac is not innocent so I'm trusting myself about this.


edit: xed with Boro

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent.

Haha! I had to check this one and you're right Lommy. The rules say it quite clearly indeed: the second lynch / kill will eliminate the player for good - and reveal her/his role.

I could see why you wished me to shut up Boro... Hopefully I've done enough damage toDay for you not wishing to pursue that any more.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...

Oh my. I'm repeating Lommy now... Just as I thought you were loking a bit innocent you wrote this!

This is a different game Boro, and you know it! In this game the mutineers don't want "half-known innocents" killed by Night as they can then contribute with some credibility and are not blown away from the game entirely - so if you're innocent you could sleep half-free of concern for your own life.

You don't need the suspicion in this game as you need in normal games (trust me, I know what I'm talking about with the normal games... my only lifeline is suspcion... ). But it's different here. Were you an innocent you would know it personally but as a mutineer (or a co-conspie) it would be just theory you just didn't come to think about?

Boro, that is mutineer-talk.

[Eönwë]

OK... I have to go now and my brain's not working- it's too late. So I shall go with my gut feeling and vote the suspicious:

++Inziladun

Who seems to have been completely forgotten by the crew and is totally under my radar today.



G'night. If I be I still I live I be seein' ye scurvy-dogs toMorrer.


edit: x-ed many

[Thinlómien]

Seer
A Little Green

Hunter
Rikae

Ordos (& Ranger)
Lommy
Nerwen
Eomer
Boro
Annu
Shasta
Kath
McCaber
Mith
Wilwa
Gwath

Co-conspirators
Nogrod
Izzy

Mutineers
Mac
Sally
Inziladun
Mira

Izzy is replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Nerwen.
Mira and Inziladun are replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Wilwa or Gwath (or even Kath or McCab).


edit: xed with Boro

[Nogrod]

Last Night there was a hunter in action. It was either Rikae or me killing the other. Well, it was Rikae who killed me. Had it been otherwise, I would be the hunter and I would have no reason to lie you about it.

I know I'm innocent - and a bit frustrated one because of the way I died - but you have no way to know it. Fine and dandy.

I do think you'll waste your lynch on me but if you wish, go ahead. I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

But you guys lynched Mira already when there would have been a chance to lynch a mutineer. Now let's be as rational as we can in these circumstances!

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...

Originally Posted by Greenie

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.

Exactly my thoughts! I'm not liking the way this thing is heading towards...


But from my position of a ghost I can safely take the other point of view as well, one I had totally forgotten as I was not around when it happened... I heard about it but forgot it until these latest discussions.

So the mutineers missed a kill! Well that is interesting and would basically rule out all the US. veterans (DL is just too nice for them and they would take care personally a kill was sent in time). But it could imply some un-orderedness among the mutineers - or which would be even better: low numbers!

Hmm... Food for thought. If that interpretation is correct you should go for those less experienced and scarcely on-line people... if not, then you have a galley (sic!) of suspects: Boro, Mac, Lommy, Mith, Kath...


But before we have shared thoughts about these two very different interpretations of the situation I could have proposed lynching Boro, if there was not this:

Originally Posted by Boro

This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

Most of what he's said has sounded like evil to my ears this far but this looks like pure innocent-thinking... Okay Boro could think this and perform it even if a wolf, but it's so much easier to think as an innocent what a wolf might do than to actually do things as a wolf (I know, I've been a wolf enough many times).

Sadly I'm not ready to give him the green card as yet either as how he explained that quote looked a bit fishy.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide?

Just because it's never happened in a game that I've been in, it doesn't mean its not allowed. That's why I wanted to know