Will of the Nazgul/Creating More Nazgul

[Alfirin]

When the messenger from Sauron came to the Dwarves wasn't one of the things he promsied them that they shoud have the three Dwarven rings again if they joined Sauron and helped Sauron find Bilbo and the One Ring? Assuming that Sauron was being in his own twisted way, sincere in this offer (And why wouldn't he be, if he held the one ring he would WANT the Dwaven rings on Dwarven fingers (at least for a while), doing thier mischief) that seems to imply that Sauron had the three rings avalaible to give, which they wouln't be if he had handed them out to three more men to make three more Nazgul. I can imagine the Mouth and two other men (maybe one great king each of Near and Far Harad, to make sure that the leader of each nation would ever be loyal to Him) but this would seem to be a later idea that would require that he abandon any plans of ensaring the Dwarven Kingdoms with them.

[Hakon]

This section of the Appendix also states that Dwarven nature provided a resistance to some of the effects of the Seven and, as a result, they could not be reduced to wraiths or enslaved to Sauron's will and their lives were not extended. Nonetheless, the Seven did have evil effects upon the Dwarves because Sauron assisted in their forging.

Well as Mithdan said earlier according to the Appendix the rings would not have turned the Dwarves to wraiths. So why would Sauron offer the three rings back to the Dwarves? It seems kind of pointless if he had nothing to gain from it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Well as Mithdan said earlier according to the Appendix the rings would not have turned the Dwarves to wraiths. So why would Sauron offer the three rings back to the Dwarves? It seems kind of pointless if he had nothing to gain from it.

He had much to gain from it. Basically, he was just using the lure of the Rings to elicit cooperation from King Dáin. I'm of a divided mind as to whether or not he would have followed through and returned the Rings if they had given up Bilbo's name and home.

[Gordis]

I think most of you tend to misunderstand one thing: Sauron couldn't distribute any of the 19 again to create more slaves while he had no Ruling Ring.

How was the original Ring-scheme supposed to work?
Sauron gives a Ring to someone (an Elf, a Dwarf or a Man) and keeps the Ruling Ring himself. Through the connection between the One and one of the 19 he is able to constantly brainwash the owner of the lesser Ring, until he becomes his slave.
That's why the Elves never wore their Rings in the Second Age and the unsuspecting Men not only became wraiths, but slaves and servants to Sauron. Note: the Three themselves contained no evil, and the Seven and Nine, "corrupted" as they are said to be, still didn't contain a large chunk of Sauron's own self as did the One. It was the connection with the Ruling Ring that mattered.

When Sauron had lost the One, the other Rings had become temporary free. The Elves and Gandalf were able to use their Rings without any ill effects, the Dwarves who wore the Seven were also opposed to Sauron for generations. The Nazgul continued to serve him because of the previous harm done to their minds and souls so that by the Third Age they had become as evil as Sauron himself and conditioned to serve him. But even this conditioning proved not enough for Sauron's satisfaction: he saw fit to take the Nine Rings back to be sure of the nazgul's absolute loyalty.

Now what happens if Sauron gives one of the Rings to a Third Age Man? The Man would become a wraith eventually, but not Sauron's servant. While living, he would be as free to use his Ring unhindered by the Dark Lord as the Elves were. Sauron would be unable to brainwash the new owner of the Ring - because he had no Ruling Ring. That was the main reason why Sauron was collecting Rings n the Third Age, not distributing them. The second reason, IMO, was that he himself needed the power of the 19 to reshape,to increase his power, to rebuild Barad-Dur etc.

And note: Sauron only promised to give three of the Seven back to the Dwarves after he would get the One back. I have no doubt that once he got the One, he would have given the remaining three of the Seven maybe to Men, maybe to Dwarves and the Nine back to the Nazgul.

[Inziladun]

You make a lot of sense, Gordis.
I would wonder, however, if the other Rings would have been as 'free' when Sauron was bereft of the One as the Three were.
The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with entirely different powers and purposes from the others. Their connection to the One was therefore weaker, but still there due to Sauron's ultimate influence in their making. For that reason, I do not think the Elves could have been reduced to wraiths in any case, merely dominated and controlled by Sauron with the One.
Any of the Seven given to a Man after the One was lost would, I think, have resulted in the possessor becoming Gollum-like. Ultimately in thrall to the Ring he bore and enduring beyond his years, but not entering the wraith-world due to the lack of Sauron's direct influence through the One.

[JeffF.]

Mithadan, you wrote earlier, "In The Council of Elrond it is stated only that the Three were hid by Celebrimbor. So from LoTR it is clear that Sauron gave at least the Nine to Men, but how the Dwarves got the Seven is not clear."

In the Silmarillion, Of The Rings OF Power in the Third Age (p357 of the Ballantine paerpack) it states that after the Three were saved and hidden, "...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle Earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine,..."

RotK App.A as already mentioned stated that Durin's Folk said their ring was given to them directly by the elven smiths and not by Sauron.

I've found no other statement regarding the distribution of Rings to the Dwarves but those two make it pretty clear that Sauron gave at least six and maybe all seven of the rings given to Dwarves.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Any of the Seven given to a Man after the One was lost would, I think, have resulted in the possessor becoming Gollum-like. Ultimately in thrall to the Ring he bore and enduring beyond his years, but not entering the wraith-world due to the lack of Sauron's direct influence through the One.

I am not so sure the man would be become Gollum-like. Tuor posted a quote from one of the letters in a different thread that relates to this.

Letters #246
Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully
instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the
Ring... if he still preserved some sanity...thery would simply have
waited. Until Sauron himself came.

Originally Posted by The Might

Tuor provides that interesting quote where Tolkien speaks about what would have happened had Frodo kept the Ring. What is important there is that the Professor underlines the fact that the only thing keeping the Ringwraiths from stabbing him to death is the tranformation that Frodo had gone through during his journey. All of a sudden he wasn't the weak Hobbit on Weathertop, but had seen and gone through so much that he had the authority to keep the Wraiths form hurting him as the master of the Ring.

The Might then does a good job of summing it and both the way The Might sums it up and the actual quote make me think that the man might slowly begin to turn into a wraith. The thing is they would not turn into a wraith instantly and most likely the ring would have been destroyed long before they were even close to becoming a full wraith.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The Might then does a good job of summing it and both the way The Might sums it up and the actual quote make me think that the man might slowly begin to turn into a wraith. The thing is they would not turn into a wraith instantly and most likely the ring would have been destroyed long before they were even close to becoming a full wraith.

I'm thinking along the lines of Gordis above- that it was not the Rings themselves that caused the wraith-state, but the lies and deceits of Sauron which he induced by the power of the One.

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.

Silm Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (emphasis added)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think most of you tend to misunderstand one thing: Sauron couldn't distribute any of the 19 again to create more slaves while he had no Ruling Ring.

You are absolutely right about this, Gordis, but Sauron was gambling that the One Ring would be his again very soon.

Of course, even with the One Ring Sauron's victory would not necessarily be swift and absolute. He possessed the Ring for many long years in the Second Age without achieving absolute domination ... and as we know he was ultimately overthrown in that era. Naturally the Kingdoms of Elves and Men were far more powerful in the Second Age, but even so Sauron was not all-powerful while possessing the Ring.

Redistributing some of the Rings he has reclaimed probably makes good sense. Even with the Ring it may take him some time to conquer all of Gondor/Rohan/Lorien/Dale/Rivendell etc. In any case it is in his nature now to try to dominate the will of others - although since the Dwarves were not susceptible to the Rings' domination in the past I have to wonder whether the Rings were little more than bait used to extract information from the weak and uncritical.