Is Sauron Frodo's shadow?

[Pitchwife]

Thanks for the comments, skip and Boro.

Well I think it's a great exaggeration to say that Frodo spends the novel becoming like Sauron, seduced by power.

My sentiments exactly. However, I think there's a grain of truth in this exaggeration, if you dig deep enough - which is the purpose of this thread.

skip: The influence of the ring, I feel, is rather like a force from the outside that Frodo is resisting stoutly, but in the very end gives in to.

Boro: But, I think the other question is, is it because the Ring is just that powerful, or does everyone's will have a bit of Sauron in it?

The point is, according to Donaldson's theory there's no clear dividing line between inside and outside in fantasy. If Sauron is a part of Frodo, so is the Ring. To quote Hermes Trismegisthos, what's outside is also inside, and vice versa. Maybe the Ring only is so powerful because everyone's will has a bit of Sauron in it.
Boro, I think Donaldson's statement indeed hinges on Frodo's critical failure at Sammath Naur - the closest he ever got to becoming like Sauron (or the little Dark Lord in his soul finally getting the better of him). Sadly, we're never told what went on in his mind at the moment, what visions and promises the Ring evoked to seduce him. Sam saw himself turning Gorgoroth into a garden - what would Frodo have done, if he could have claimed the Ring and got away with it? We'll never know (but feel free to speculate).

[Macalaure]

I don't have the time to read the whole essay at the moment, so I'm just going by the passages you quoted.

The first thing that came to my mind is, that something must be wrong with Donaldson's idea applied to LotR, since Frodo doesn't ever directly struggle with Sauron at all. If at all, the Ring has to be Frodo's shadow (though of course one could make the argument that Sauron and his Ring aren't really separate characters). The Ring, however, definitely is both, an external and an internal force, and thus fits the job description very well. The Ring externalises certain struggles that otherwise take place inside a character. It is (among other things) the permanent availability of an easy way out, whether the character is faced with dangers (Black Riders), or the decision between a hard and an easy way (destroy or use Ring to destroy Sauron), and an ever-increasing mental and physical weight that wants to keep the character from fulfilling his duty.

Then again, it can't really be applied to the whole book. The "philosophy" behind using the ring or not to destroy Sauron (and thus becoming a Dark Lord themselves or not) is an important part of the book and defines many characters to a large degree. However, this struggle does not actually form the whole of the novel. Book 3, for example, is barely concerned with the Ring's effects. Are the parts that tell us about the struggles of Aragorn, Gandalf, Merry and Pippin, Théoden, and Denethor just fancy, but negligible, accessories? This makes me think: Do we really need an explicit second character that the first character can struggle with in order to have an externalised struggle? Maybe Donaldson's idea is valid, but too narrow the way he formulates it.

One thing that Donaldson certainly got wrong is that he says "Frodo spends the novel in the process of becoming Sauron". To the contrary, he spends the novel (successfully) resisting becoming Sauron, and only giving in in the crucial end. Right before entering Sammath Naur, he's clearly still himself. This has me thinking whether there are main characters in Tolkien's works who do struggle between good and evil over a longer course of time and who do become evil (or good again) gradually. Nobody from the LotR, but from the Silm Túrin or Maedhros and Maglor come to mind.

Am I mistaken, or does Donaldson's idea have one interesting consequence:
We've all heard people criticise LotR for its supposed lack of character depth. This looks a lot different in the light of this idea, since the character development is not confined to being inside the characters anymore.

[Boromir88]

Ooh I read the essay, and Donaldson got his masters from Kent St...therefor it is my duty to support whatever he says as undeniable truth

One thing that Donaldson certainly got wrong is that he says "Frodo spends the novel in the process of becoming Sauron".~Mac

Hmm...I don't know if that is completely true, because before he enters the Sammath Naur we do see the Ring really taking it's hold on Frodo. Although, I do think the fact that Frodo did get the Ring into the Sammath Naur does prove your point that Frodo had spent most of the novel successfully resisting becoming Sauron.

I wonder if Donaldson chose the right person...what about Gollum? Because I think if Donaldson's overall point that Sauron was an externalized 'part' of Frodo, than we have to find other characters who represent a part of Frodo. I would think based on the connection Frodo finds between him and Gollum, seeing what the Ring has done to Gollum, and what it is doing to himself, Gollum would be a better person than Sauron.

However, if Sauron (as Donaldson argues) is Tolkien's representation of pure evil in the novel, then he would only represent whatever evil exists within Frodo. Hmm...now I'm wondering if that is making any sense.

We've all heard people criticise LotR for its supposed lack of character depth. This looks a lot different in the light of this idea, since the character development is not confined to being inside the characters anymore.~Mac

I think throughout the story, we do see several layers of internalizing and externalizing. I don't know if there is any part of Boromir within Frodo, because they are two distinctly opposite characters. However, if you look at the Breaking of the Fellowship...

Right before Boromir tries to take the Ring from Frodo he is facing his own internal struggle to resist the Ring. Then when he falls, attempts to take the Ring, he because an external representation to Frodo, because right after Frodo escapes he puts on the Ring on Amon Hen and undergoes his own internal struggle between "the Voice" and "the Eye." So, you could say Boromir externalizes the struggle that Frodo would undergo a few moments later.

[Morsul the Dark]

But the main theory is to say no fantasy is real.... That is to say LOTR only happened in Frodo's head to apply this to all fantasies is false. The "Black Company" series is a story not an inner struggle. as is LOTR... Sauron and Frodo are not connected. Some Stories are this format but openly admit it, "The Cell" the Jennifer Lopez movie(her Only good movie by the way) is all in Vincent D'Onofrios head.

Frodo has a lust for power it's in everyone. However it takes the entire novel for it to wear him down. If he were sauron the struggle would be lost it takes the outside influence of Gollum to rid the world of the ring.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...offhand, I would say that Frodo did not spend his time becoming Sauron; on the contrary, he did not possess the will or need to dominate. The Ring, more coersive and addictive than any drug, simply took control of him where it was at the zenith of its power, in Orodruin. The Ring certainly played on the vanities and greed of those that possessed it (Gollum and Isildur, for instance), but what allowed Frodo to almost succeed was that he did not wish to have the Ring, he did not seek power. However, Frodo's spirit had ebbed due to sting and stab (an insidious wound by a Morgul blade that never fully healed), and he could not overcome the Ring's influence. If he had not been injured and fatigued beyond endurance, would he have had the will to complete his task? The idea is at least compelling enough for further consideration. Bilbo gave it up (after bearing it far longer), Bombadil played parlor tricks with it, and Gandalf, Galadriel and Faramir refused it, although each in their own way either coveted it or considered using it against Sauron.

Therefore, the fall of Sauron occurred precisely because Frodo lacked the intent to become Sauron personified, and his mercy and compassion -- virtues utterly alien to the Dark Lord -- compensated for his inevitably succumbing to a power greater than his weakened spirit could handle. In any case, a Hobbit such as Frodo seemed to be the perfect carrier for the Ring because Hobbits, for the most part, did not have societal interests in domination, bellicosity or overweaning greed, being a good-natured, peaceable and simple folk.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...offhand, I would say that Frodo did not spend his time becoming Sauron; on the contrary, he did not possess the will or need to dominate.

I agree - and also with Boromir's point about Smeagol better fitting the role of Frodo's shadow. Sauron doesn't even come into Lord of the Rings as a proper character, and therefore cannot really fit into such a scheme, in my opinion.

It seems as if this isn't the first critic I've seen focus too intently on Sauron's role as the personification of evil in LOTR. He is such a distant and undeveloped figure, and there are so many more fleshed out, less absolute ones: Gollum, Saruman, Denethor, Grima, etc.

[Boromir88]

It seems as if this isn't the first critic I've seen focus too intently on Sauron's role as the personification of evil in LOTR. He is such a distant and undeveloped figure, and there are so many more fleshed out, less absolute ones: Gollum, Saruman, Denethor, Grima, etc.~Rikae

True and the reason I like Gollum better, also, is because there actually is the external battle between Gollum and Frodo - there is none between Frodo and Sauron.

Even if someone argues that the Ring's will is Sauron's, therefor when Frodo battles with the Ring, he is battling Sauron. I don't agree with that, because there always appeared to be a certain sentience about the Ring. The Ring wasn't just an extension of Sauron's will, it was more than Sauron's will. Sauron created an object that was stronger than him...he couldn't destroy it. And the Ring could survive without Sauron, but Sauron could not survive without the Ring.

Also, if what Gandalf tells Frodo is true, this seems to apply to all the Ring's of Power:

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo."~The Shadow of the Past

This makes it sound like The One Ring (and all rings of power) have a seperate "will" than their bearers or creators.

I do agree with Pitchwife though, that just because on the surface there appears to be no relation to Sauron and Frodo, that doesn't mean there isn't anything. Generally Hobbits do not lust for power, and that would make them a good bearer for the One. However, don't forget, just how Hobbit-like was Frodo? I would not call Bilbo the stereotypical hobbit, other hobbits said he was strange, because Bilbo wanted adventure, he wanted to go beyond the borders of the Shire. Frodo, also shows signs of this, when he wants to leave the Shire and follow Bilbo. That doesn't make Frodo evil, but it certainly makes him different from our general assumptions about Hobbits. Also, during the Council of Elrond, Frodo was not forced to take the quest, he volunteered. Why?

[Pitchwife]

More nice comments by everybody. We certainly don't have to keep this focused on Sauron and Frodo exclusively, and I agree that Gollum makes a much better example for D's theory than Sauron - Frodo under the influence of the Ring is in serious danger of becoming Gollum, much more than he is of becoming Sauron; which is precisely what enables him to understand and pity Gollum.
About the character development thing - yes, I think D has a very strong point here. Generally, in the literature of adventure, characters are studied and developed through action rather than introspective analysis, but in fantasy, everything that happens, everything a character does or encounters is, or can become, characterization - even scenery: think of Aragorn under the Argonath, or Gimli and the Glittering Caves.
Boro does a nice job applying the theory to Boromir (as could be expected), and I'm sure this could be done for other characters as well.

Morth, while I agree that Frodo certainly didn't lust for power the way Sauron did, I'm not so sure he utterly lacked a will or need to dominate - nor the capacity, even though in him this was much more limited than in Sauron, or e.g. Gandalf or even Aragorn. There are a few interesting moments in Frodo's interaction with Gollum, starting in Book IV, The Taming of Sméagol:

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog.

A little later (The Black Gate is Closed):

"In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!"

And finally (Book VI, Mount Doom):

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire, there spoke a commanding voice.
"Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

I don't doubt that Frodo, wearing the Ring, could have dominated Gollum in the crucial moment, if he hadn't been taken by surprise. By the way, whose voice is speaking here, out of the fire - Frodo's or the Rings? They have become indistinguishable.

Morsul lays his finger on what I feel to be the main flaw with applying D's theory to LotR (literally, at least):

That is to say LOTR only happened in Frodo's head

This is true for D's Covenant, who is unconscious or dying in the 'real' world every time he's summoned to the Land, so everything that happens to him there may well be 'only in his head' (not that this makes a difference, as he finds out). In LotR, however, the division between a primary and secondary world doesn't enter into the story, so both Frodo and Sauron, as well as all the other characters, are on the same ontological level, denizens of the same world. But I think the theory can be modified to fit.

(This is going on really nicely, thanks to everybody for contributing!)