Armies of Middle Earth during WotR

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF and all,

slowly catching up with all this that was going on while I was travelling.

First a few old threads that may be useful for the discussion-

How Many in the Battle of the Five Armies?

Soldiers Available in ME

Gondor: Population and Casualties

A few extra thoughts-

Rohan could raise about 10,000 infantry (local militia probably) as well as the eoreds.

Gondor -really tricky! When were the 'Days of Power' that Imrahil mentions? We don't know which Age that he's referring to even.

The Fiefs might be able to raise 30,000 as 3,000 at MT are a tithe of their strength, unless this was an exaggeration!

By total guesswork I reckon that Minas Tirith City itself might raise something around 12,000 men, the crazy guess being - MT could hold 100,000 people based on historical cities, but this is within an order of magnitude! (not as low as 10,000, almost definitely less than 1 million). By LoTR it contained half that number ie 50,000 people, half male ie 25,000, maybe half of fighting age so about 12,000. OK this could be a lot lower or higher, but you get my drift. JeffF's estimate sounds within a range I'd be happy with.

Dain, Thranduil, Lothlorien, Woodmen & Beornings and High Elves I'd agree with. Remember Isildur was 3000 years ago so a lot would have changed in that time!

Dale I'd reckon a bit bigger after their recent expansion, Woses maybe fewer.

Hobbits - less than a few hundred bounders and shirrifs, but thousands of partly-armed hobbitry when 'roused'.

Saruman - I'd go for the higher estimate, as the 10,000 orcs were those at Helm's Deep, therefore not counting any casualties and detachments involved in the Fords of the Isen, Ugluk et al, and the men and halforcs of various types.

Sauron -
waylaying the East Road - spot on.

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas. I think PJ computer-generated about 200,000 to make it look like a big army, not that this means much . Nice mention of the Siege of Vienna by Tuor, similarly huge besieging army but mostly composed of unenthusiastic conscripts around a small core of good troops. If I remember it was said that they chained artillerymen to their guns to stop them running away, which sounds unpromising! Also echoes of Byzantium in my mind.

Dol Guldur - likely a lot more, it was re-occupied with sevenfold strength after the White Council threw out the Necromancer at the time of The Hobbit. As JeffF said, in LoTR they mounted a number of attacks and got beaten each time, possibly split their forces? Cardinal error! Lack of Nazgul direction?

Easterlings etc - would agree with Kuru that the Sauronic numbers here should be larger though would be less inclined to increase the Dwarf and Dale (and Laketown) numbers so much. Would also imagine orcish allies turning up from the old holds that could have regained their population after Bo5A.

Black Gate- 'ten times and more than ten times' - a problematical phrase. Could mean 10x (ie 60,000), 10x plus a bit more (70-80,000), 10x plus 10x plus a bit more (around 150,000) or even 10x x 10x plus a bit, (700,000!!! - not v likely). I'd go for one of the middle estimates, clearly the Allies were going to be wiped out unless the Ring was destroyed.

I guess the key thing is that the majority of the Sauronic forces are orcs that are clearly qualitatively inferior to most troops (eg Denethor surprised that Boromir was slain by orcs alone, relative casualties in Eomer's battle, etc etc). Think Challenger or Abrams tanks versus T55s !

[JeffF.]

I'm convinced by statements in RotK and Unfinished Tales that the full muster of the Rohirrim pertains to almost all the men of military age. In UT Eorl describes his force that he takes south to Cirion's rescue as the entire force available to him except for a few hundred riders that he leaves behind to support those too old or too young to make the ride.

In RotK Theoden is describing his host. He says that he might have led 10000 men to the dismay of Gondor's foes but that it will bel less (6000) because he will "not leave his strongholds all unmanned." This is a decisive statement. He would not have thought about leaving 4000 riders if he had ten thousand infantry (which if they existed would be better suited to defend The Hordburg and Dunharrow.

In UT Cirion and Eorl the lands that are given to the Eorlingas are all but unpeopled. The Rohirrim were a horse culture and by far were the majority. Helm and his men are described as having mixed with the few people who were already in the area (shorter and darker than the Rohirrim) ahd the two thousand infantry described in Two Towers are likely not Riders of the Mark though undoubtedly some were dismounted infantry who lost their horses at the Battles of the Ford of Isen.

A large force of infantry cannot be reconciled with Theoden's description and the anguished decision he must make as he decides how many men to take with him to Gondor.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

what a busy Bank Holiday!

The reference for the 10,000 infantry is from an earlier draft in HoME, so perhaps not to be taken as 100% reliable. In this early version they include men on foot and mounted on ponies (possibly some sort of mounted infantry?) plus volunteers from the Woodmen and even some reconciled Dunlendings. We certainly see foot soldiers at Helm's Deep and the Fords of the Isen.

I've thought that Rohan is really like two countries, one around the foothills and mountains thats more settled (probably some farmers), townsmen of Dunharrow, Edoras, Aldburg etc, similar to Dark Age English. The other of semi-nomadic herdsmen on the plains (Goth-like, given the acknowledged device of Rohirric names changing from earlier to later forms of Germanic).

Eorl was 400 years ago, so a lot had changed, plenty of scope for 'multiplication' of the Rohirrim .

Agree that it may well be less than 10,000, but the infantry might not be sufficiently mobile to concentrate against any major attacks, just to put up a defence at the various strongpoints, and would likely be a part-time militia (seen too many summers, or too few!). We see upto 2,000 foot in the Westfold, could there be similar numbers in the Eastfold and Edoras district for approx 6,000 in total? These could not put up much oppostion to a major attack from Dol Guldur, though with some thousands of cavalry left behind should just about get away with it.

Though it does make Theoden's decision seem a little less heroic.

Perhaps Grima had made some 'defence-cuts' on the sly between the 2 versions

[Boromir88]

Just a couple points of discussion to bring up.

Rumil

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas.

I disagree, Karen Fonstad in her Atlas of Middle-Earth does put out a conservative estimate of 45,000. It could have been more than this, because she was primarily basing it off of the 3:1, or 4:1 ratio (Sauron's forces vs. Gondor's and Allies). It was said that the Easterlings thrice outnumbered what the Rohirrim had set out with (6,000). So that places the Easterlings with 18,000.

Now she estimates the force that left Minas Morgul to be 20,000, which is a pretty good estimate because it was the 'largest force' that left the fortress since Isildur's time.

Then the unnumbered "reserves" that Gothmog throws in, is more of a filler number to keep the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. So on the conservative a total would be about 45,000, the upper end probably 60,000.

It can't be larger than the army at the Black Gate, because that was Sauron's largest army. And I don't think there is much ambiguity with the "10 times and more than 10 times." Tolkien was very careful with his word selection, there was not one of his "600,000 words" that he did not go over and reconsider...and reconsider a third time. 70,000-80,000...has just been the more familiar one with me, anything above 100,000 is verging into PJ territory who took great liberty to inflate the numbers (especially orcs).

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs). Now there aren't specifics about the army at the Black Gate, other than being "10 times and more than 10 times." That could very well be mostly comprised of Orcs, but Sauron seemed to rely heavily on Men to make up his armies. At Minas Tirith and against the Dwarves, which was an entirely Easterling force.

I remember one of Kuru's threads a while ago, about Dwarves...hmm I should probably try to find it. But The Silmarillion does say:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Estimating their numbers will be pretty hard, because I had the impression they mostly just ignored the "global" issues, sticking to themselves, except Durin's folk. However, we also know they were an extremely warlike race, so when they actually were spurred to fight, I would imagine every male in the colony would take up arms. This creates some problems with numbers, because despite few ever fighting for either side, when they actually did fight, they could gather everybody.

It would be a shame if Dain did give in to despair at the end, but the way the text is phrased it gives the implication of one who no longer has any expectation or desire of living and Dain doesn't seem like one to just simply be overcome by battle-madness.~Kuru

I agree. The text seems to indicate that not only was Dain a mighty warrior at his great age, but also an extremely competent (and effective) leader for the dwarves.

But Dain Ironfoot was a worthy successor. And now we hear that he fell fighting before Erebor again, even while we fought here. I should call it a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.~UT: The Quest for Erebor

A "worthy" successor for a dwarf I think is more than simply a dwarf who knows how to wield an axe. I will use Gondor as an example...Tolkien loved front-line leaders who were not hot heads, perfect example is Faramir. He did not look to highly at the "chateaux generals" (of WW1) who led millions of men to slaughter while they sat away from the front lines in their French mansions (Denethor or Sauron), and even though Boromir led from the front-line he was "rash and ever anxious..." two not so noble sounding qualities in a leader. The Dwarves always looked out for their own interests (as really I think most Men and Elves did too!), and I would imagine prefer a leader who can not only fight at the front with his men, but remain composed.

From what little we know of Dain, I always saw him closer to Faramir's quality of leadership. Not only did he lead from the front-line, but every decision was based upon upon the care of his soldiers and people...getting everyone into Erebor and falling at the gates looks more like a Faramir move (as Boromir tells the council it was him Faramir and two others were the last to hold the bridge before they blew it.) and not someone in a battle-frenzy. Some may think Dain's response to Sauron's messenger as "dragging his feet," but I always saw it as more of an attempt to honestly assess the situation they were about to face. Gloin says Dain feared King Brand would yield, and denying Sauron's messenger was simply a strategy to buy Dain (and the dwarves) time to consider their options.

[JeffF.]

I have long been bothered by the low strength of the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor in fact I revised their estimated strength upwards a couple of times. One of the statements that has been important in affecting these was one by Gandalf in Unfinished Tales, going back over the sources of my notes I found that I made a mistake in this particular citation. Gandalf did not say that Sauron used more than half his strength in attacking Minas Tirith rather he said he used more than half his strength attacking Gondor. This simple change has drastic effect on the estimates of the Easterlings who attack Dale & Erebor and the strength of Dol Guldor who attacks Lorien three times and Thranduil once. These upward revisions of estimates for their enemies also cause an upward revision of the strength of the Men of Dale, Dwarves of Erebor and Elves of Greenwood (though still had to account for the limits of the force sheltering within Erebor). Gimli's statement in FotR that some Dwarves (like Balin) felt they had the strength and numbers to return to Moria and another in UT that Thorin's dwarves were increased by the wandering people of Durin's Folk give weight to increasing the Dwarves estimate. It is likely that Dwarves of other houses besides the Firebeards and Broadbeams also joined the Kingdom Under the Mountain (as the Firebeards and Broadbeams did with the Longbeards in Khazud Dum after the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost attracted by the wealth and vigor of Dain's kingdom. As for Dale the Hobbit states that there were many settlements of men south of Laketown (Esgaroth) and these would have come under the dominion of Dale (the logical borders being River Running and River Redwater).

I revise my estimates: Dwarves: Kingdom Under the Mountain 3000, Iron Hills 1500 (vassals of the Kingdom but separate). Kingdom of Dale 3000 infantry, 1000 cavalry (with half located outside the environs of the City of Dale mostly from Laketown down the River Running). Thranduil's Army 4000 archers and spearmen and Lorien's Army 4500. These odds still account for the initial loss, the retreat of (most) of Dale's Army and Erebor's into the Mountain and the later sortie that defeats the Easterlings once they are removed from Sauron's will.

The Easterlings attacking Erebor/Dale/Iron Hills I estimate at around 15000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. The Orcs and Trolls of Dol Guldor (reinforced by those from Moria) I keep at the upper end of my previous estimate at 10000 with a few hundred trolls (these attacks on Lorien and Thranduil were so decisively beaten/wiped out that they could not have had much of an advantage in numbers. I still take Gandalf's statement that the enemy has few horsemen as canon. Though the forces attacking in the North were not near half of Sauron's initial force as a soldier I think Sauron would recognize that the attacks on Minas Tirith and Gondor were his 'Main Effort' (to use a modern military term) and would have allotted his forces accordingly (and all these initial hosts were aside from the 60-65000 he used to face the Captains of the West at the Black Gate).

[Kuruharan]

How do you reconcile such tiny numbers of dwarves with the statement that they had grown "strong" again? The population of the dwarves may only grow slowly, but it still capable of growth. Durin's Folk had been mighty enough to provide the bulk of the forces that fought a victorious war against the orcs when they didn't have a settled capital. Why the presumption that they wouldn't be able to field a substantial force when they did have a settled capital?

Upon what are you basing the belief that Erebor would not be able to accommodate substantial numbers of refugees as well as substantial forces in the event of a siege? I suspect that if nothing else the physical size of the dwarven city in the mountain was probably greater than Dale, if not substantially larger (I think it was probably substantially larger). Why couldn't the dwarves have accommodated large numbers of Bardings in their hour of need?

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

The way I see it the Easterling army is entirely heavy infantry and light cavalry. I also picture a steppe culture but the army being less steppe like than the actual culture.

Also on a side note I would like to point something out about the numbers. For Mordor instead of it being say 65000 it is more like 65328 troops. I am sure you are all aware of this but I always feel the need to state the obvious.

[Gordis]

It is a very interesting thread. I have little new to contribute, but I have some observations/questions...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs).

I don't think the force leaving Minas Morgul were mostly orcs. Certainly not all were orcs: orcs don't ride horses and there was a huge cavalry detachmant:

And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons: those were brightly clad, IIRC, with serpent-banners. So - were they Black Numenoreans? Or maybe wraiths? And what has become of this black-clad cavalry later? - I am not sure it was mentioned at the Pelennor.

As for the rest of the army, I don't know, but their description doesn't sound much like Orcs: silent, orderly etc. Of course, maybe they were just well-trained and much intimidated by the WK at the moment.

[JeffF.]

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

I doubt not that there were Haradrim at the Pelennor - yet there is no evidence that the Haradrim cavalry had issued from Minas Morgul.

Instead we learn that the army of Harad had joined the Morgul host on the East bank of the Anduin:

It was night again ere news came. A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall. ‘And we have learned ‘ said the messenger, ‘that the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.’

You may note that Frodo saw no Mumakil in Mordor Host, but they were present at the Pelennor. Haradrim are describes as "Southrons in scarlet" and they have scarlet banners with black serpent. Nothing like that was observed among the Minas Morgul host in the Morgul Vale.