The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn

[Findegil]

Since Tolkien used casque himself (which is bit strange but true) it is the better word.

For line 188 I have to agree to Aiwendil that 'tauntingly scorned' is the better second half-line. The alliteration has to be at the first sylable with emphasis. Thus 'did' is not that good a the start of the line.

I think we have now a very good alliteritive version which we could use. So I am all the more for using it instat of the prose lines.

Aiwendil worte:

One of them, untitled, is based on part of Gwindor's speech about the river Sirion at Eithel Ivrin, lines 1554-1570 in the Lay. I'm almost tempted to suggest that it was in fact a replacement passage for those lines. We may want to consider using it as such.

I agree that we can simply use this as an replacement. I will give it the editing mark NA-EX-47.55. But what do we make of the three last lines placed within brackets?

About Winter comes to Nargothrond:

Thus NA-RG-95 {Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96 {Flinding}[Gwindor] __ {friendship}guest-kindliness showed him, 80
and their halls were his home, __ while high summer
NA-EX-49.03{waned to autumn __ and the western gales
the leaves loosened __ from the labouring boughs;
the feet of the forest __ in fading gold {2085}
and burnished brown __ were buried deeply;
a restless rustle __ down the roofless aisles
sighed and whispered. __ Lo! the Silver Wherry,
the sailing Moon __ with slender mast,
was filled with fires __ as of furnace golden {2090}
whose hold had hoarded __ the heats of summer,
whose shrouds were shaped __ of shining flame
uprising ruddy __ o'er the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.}<Lay, Endnote {The summer slowly __ in the sad forest
}waned and faded. __ In the west arose
winds that wandered __ over warring seas.
Leaves were loosened __ from labouring boughs:
fallow-gold they fell, __ and the feet buried {5}85
of trees standing __ tall and naked,
rustling restlessly __ down roofless aisles,
shifting and drifting.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The shining vessel
of the sailing moon __ with slender mast,
with shrouds shapen __ of shimmering flame, {10}90
uprose ruddy __ on the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.>
Thus the months fleeted __ and mightily he fared {2095}
in the forest with NA-RG-97 {Flinding}[friends], __ and his fate waited
slumbering a season, __ while he sought for joy 95
the lore learning __ and the league sharing
of the NA-RG-98 {Gnomes}[Noldor] __ renowned of Nargothrond.

The ways of the woods __ he wandered far, {2100}
and the land's secrets __ he learned swiftly
by winter unhindered __ to weathers hardened{,}. 100
NA-EX-49.05{whether snow or sleet __ or slanting rain
from glowering heavens __ grey and sunless
cold and cruel __ was cast to earth, 2105
till the floods were loosed __ and the fallow waters
of sweeping Narog, __ swollen, angry,
were filled with flotsam __ and foaming turbid
passed in tumult; __ or twinkling pale
ice-hung evening __ was opened wide, 2110
a dome of crystal __ o'er the deep silence
of the windless wastes __ and the woods standing
like frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.}<Lay, Endnote With winding horns __ winter hunted
in the weeping woods, __ wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing, __ and slanting hail {15}
from glowering heaven __ grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash __ whirled by tempest. 105
The floods were freed __ and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, __ swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, __ foaming, turbid, {20}
passed in tumult. __ The tempest died.
Frost descended __ from far mountains 110
steel-cold and still. __ Stony-glinting
icehung evening __ was opened wide,
a dome of crystal __ over deep silence, {25}
over windless wastes __ and woods standing
as frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.> 115
By day or night __ danger needless
he dared and sought for, __ his dread vengeance {2115}
ever seeking unsated __ on the sons of Angband;
yet as winter waxed __ wild and pathless,
and biting blizzards __ the bare faces 120
lashed and tortured __ of the lonely tors
and haggard hilltops, __ in the halls more often {2120}
was he found in fellowship __ with the folk of Narog,
and cunning there added __ in the crafts of hand,
and in subtle mastery __ of song and music 125
and peerless poesy, __ to his proven lore
and wise woodcraft; __ there wondrous tales {2125}
were told to Túrin __ in tongues of gold
in those mansions deep, __ there many a day
to the hearth and halls __ of the haughty king 130
did those friends now fare __ to feast and game,

That's what I thought we could make out of it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Actually the form with "did" matches almost exactly the form of one of the lines in "The Flight of the Noldoli:"

a shuddering fear __ and shapeless night

Perhaps we should drop the "-ly" rather than the "did" to make it match completely the form of the "Tolkienian" verse:

the tormenting Orcs __ did taunting scorn.

[Aiwendil]

Well, obviuosly since Tolkien used 'casque' it can stay. (The spelling 'cask' has been used with the meaning of 'helmet' according to the OED, so I'm surprised Tolkien spelled it the French way).

Line 188: I think either 'did taunting scorn' or 'tauntingly scorned' is a perfectly good half-line. If I recall correctly, the former is a type B and the latter a type E verse. I suppose if Aran prefers 'did taunting scorn' we can go with that - indeed, it might be better simply because B verses are more common than E.

I think I now agree to using the alliterative passage rather than the prose.

But what do we make of the three last lines placed within brackets?

I don't know if the intention could have been to simply delete them, since that would leave the last line as a sentence fragment. I suppose we could delete the last four lines, or perhaps delete the last three and change the semicolon at line 22 to a comma. But actually I think it's perfectly fine to use the last three lines, despite the brackets - Tolkien may have intended to revise them, but of course that's true of many texts.

I'm a little less sure about Winter Comes to Nargothrond. As much as I love this poem, I don't know if we really gain much of anything by chopping it up and inserting it into the Lay. So I think I lean toward omitting it and sticking with the Lay as written.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

If I may make one last comment on this portion, I would drop a couple words to make: "To the trunk of a tree __ trammeled he lay" into "To trunk of tree __ trammeled he lay," unless you don't like that. The first seems to have too many syllables for my taste.

[Aiwendil]

That works for me. As long as we're making minor suggestions, though, how about:

to trunk of tree __ he trammeled lay

At perhaps the danger of giving the verse an iambic feel, I think the x ` x ` pattern is to be preferred to ` x x ` (I hope that makes sense).

[Findegil]

About Winter comes to Nargothrond: What about using it later as an entity? Like this:

But Túrin passed away on the northward road, and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master. Then he turned to his own pleasure, and sent forth his blast, and burned all about him. But all the Orcs that were busy in the sack he routed forth, and drove them away, and denied them their plunder even to the last thing of worth. The bridge then he broke down and cast into the foam of Narog; and being thus secure he gathered all the hoard and riches of Felagund and heaped them, and lay upon them in the innermost hall, and rested a while.NA-EX-58.15 <Lay Endnote

Winter comes to Nargothrond
The summer slowly __ in the sad forest
waned and faded. __ In the west arose
winds that wandered __ over warring seas.
Leaves were loosened __ from labouring boughs:
fallow-gold they fell, __ and the feet buried 5
of trees standing __ tall and naked,
rustling restlessly __ down roofless aisles,
shifting and drifting.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The shining vessel
of the sailing moon __ with slender mast,
with shrouds shapen __ of shimmering flame, 10
uprose ruddy __ on the rim of Evening
by the misty wharves __ on the margin of the world.
With winding horns __ winter hunted
in the weeping woods, __ wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing, __ and slanting hail 15
from glowering heaven __ grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash __ whirled by tempest.
The floods were freed __ and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, __ swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, __ foaming, turbid, 20
passed in tumult. __ The tempest died.
Frost descended __ from far mountains
steel-cold and still. __ Stony-glinting
icehung evening __ was opened wide,
a dome of crystal __ over deep silence, 25
over windless wastes __ and woods standing
as frozen phantoms __ under flickering stars.>

And Túrin hastened along the ways to the north, through the lands now desolate between Narog and {Teiglin}[Taeglin], and the Fell Winter came down to meet him; for in that year snow fell ere autumn was passed, and spring came late and cold. Ever it seemed to him as he went that he heard the cries of Finduilas, calling his name by wood and hill, and great was his anguish; but his heart being hot with the lies of Glaurung, and seeing ever in his mind the Orcs burning the house of Húrin or putting Morwen and Niënor to torment, he held on his way, and turned never aside.>
The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin
At last worn by haste ...

Thus we have some repeating of simelar lines but I think they can bear it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

That works for me. As long as we're making minor suggestions, though, how about:



At perhaps the danger of giving the verse an iambic feel, I think the x ` x ` pattern is to be preferred to ` x x ` (I hope that makes sense).

I agree.

I'm not so sure about "Winter Comes to Nargothrond."

[Aiwendil]

I'm hesitant to use 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond' there since so many lines are repeated (more or less exactly) from the Lay. I think in the end we must simply drop the poem.